Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Saturday, 26th July 2008 Change Date

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Union rallying cry as Brown bids to end referendum fiasco



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 16 May 2008
GORDON Brown yesterday put himself at the forefront of the battle to save the Union, as he issued a rallying cry for people to rise against the "separatist" forces of the SNP.
The Prime Minister said he would spend the "next few months" making the case for the preservation of the United Kingdom. He said others across the political spectrum who shared his views "should now be out there defending the Union".

His comments
came as an opinion poll found only 31 per cent of Scots would vote for independence, while 43 per cent would vote against.

Mr Brown's intervention followed a torrid fortnight for Wendy Alexander, the Labour leader in Scotland, who has performed a series of U-turns on her support for an independence referendum and the timing of any vote.

Labour MSPs, at a meeting on Tuesday, ditched her pledge that the party would not stand in the way of an SNP bill, which has yet to be tabled at Holyrood, to hold a referendum in 2010.

Labour also backtracked from Ms Alexander's infamous call to the SNP to "bring it on" and hold a vote as soon as possible.

Mr Brown was asked yesterday, at his monthly news conference at No 10, whether Scots should place their faith in him – and his long-standing defence of the Union – or Ms Alexander.

He sidestepped the question, saying there were no plans on the table, either at Westminster or Holyrood, for a referendum. But he admitted an "intense debate" was taking place, creating "uncertainty" and, leading many people to argue that "action should be taken".

He went on: "Now that we know that the Scottish National Party, at some point, want to break up the United Kingdom, and now that we know there is also an English lobby for a separate English parliament, the case for the United Kingdom and the integration of it has got to be put, and that is what I intend to do over the next few months."

Mr Brown called for attention to be focused on the "economic and social and political case" in favour of the 300-year-old Union. He said: "It's very important to recognise that the case for the Union must now be put."

Asked how he would rate Ms Alexander's performance over the past fortnight, he said: "I said last Saturday that she had been an excellent leader of the Labour party in Scotland."

He went on: "What I want to say is that all those people who are unionists, who believe the Union is worth defending, should now be out there, defending the Union and realising that there are people whose only mission in life is to break up the Union. I'm going to defend the Union. I believe it's good for Britain. I believe it's good for the people of Britain."

But his call was mocked by the SNP.

A spokesman for Alex Salmond, the First Minister, said: "If Gordon Brown wants to campaign for his preferred solution, he should equally be prepared to allow the people to decide in a referendum at the conclusion of the campaign.

"There is no point in having a campaign if you are running away from a referendum."

Ms Alexander's "bring it on" call was seen as a way of "shooting the SNP's fox" but many in the Labour Party feared any referendum would become a popularity contest between Mr Brown and Mr Salmond.

INDEPENDENCE SUPPORT AT 31%

FEWER than one in three Scots back independence, according to a new poll.

Asked whether Scotland should become independent, 31 per cent said Yes, 43 per cent said No and 26 per cent said they did not know.

The telephone survey of 1,051 adults, for STV's Politics Now programme, is in contrast to a newspaper poll last month that found marginally greater support for independence than for staying in the UK.

The STV poll also found that if a multi-option referendum was held, 50.1 per cent would back remaining within the UK but with more powers for the Scottish Parliament. Only 25.1 per cent would back independence, while 24.8 per cent wanted no change.

Second preferences were not counted in the poll.







The full article contains 715 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 15 May 2008 9:27 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish independence
 
1

Angus Ogg,

15/05/2008 22:12:49

How out of touch is Gordon Brown.

He is now the political Midas touch in reverse.

If he intends to put himself at the forefront of saving the Union, then Great Britain is trully doomed. Independence will follow.

Personally, I think the bulk of non-political-anorak voters are fed up with what we have, and whilst they may not quite be willing to go the whole hog and completely seperate Scotland from the UK, I would put money on the actual result being to have some form of federal independence within the UK.

I simply cannot see the average voter voting for either the bankrupt status quo, nor the complete end of the Union.

As with many things, the sound money is on there being a negotiated settlement of the will of the people, and that, in all probability will be a balanced view.

Hence the reasoned thought it will be "Independence Within The UK".

The only wild card is if Gordon Brown makes himself a figurehead for backing the Union. If that happens, then as he is so unpopular, and the Scottish electorate can be stubbornly contrary, that the vote may very well end up with a majority for Independence.

Intersting Times !

2

Conan the Librarian™,

16/05/2008 00:07:27
Yet again Labour arrogance.There is most definately a plan for an independence referendum at Holyrood.
Perhaps not on the opposition side.This week. Maybe.
3

Jwil,

16/05/2008 00:16:47
Brown said "Now that we know that the Scottish National Party, at some point, want to break up the United Kingdom...."

Where has he been. We have always known this. It's what the SNP are for!
4

livilion,

livingston 16/05/2008 00:52:19
Only 31%? Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't 24% enough to put Honest Tony Blair back in government to take us into a war in Iraq and Afghanistan, restart the nuclear arms race, abolish the 10p tax band and so forth?

Unionists must be keeching their pants when they consider that no-one has actively put the case for independence for years now and still 31% have said they're definitely in favour of full blown independence and another 26% have declined to rule out the idea.

What can a unionist tell Scotland in the run up to a constitutional referendum that we haven't seen discredited this last thirty years or more?:

IE: The SNP have no experience of running a government, we'd become an economic basket case, we'd be the next Albania or Bangladesh, £5000 a head extra tax bills, Scotland would be too wee to be viable, companies heading for the border exits, border guards at Carlisle and families divided across an English checkpoint Charlie, terrorists just waiting for independence day celebrations to bomb us back to the union. We have insufficient talent or intelligence to run an independent government by ourselves. Folks in England might take the huff and stop subsidising us?

Aye, that'll be shining bright, heard it, tried the pies, got the tee-shirts!
5

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 16/05/2008 00:53:34
But they had since before 1707 to talk up the union, how much more time do they need?

As for the poll, I wish they would make their mind s up, we were told it was only 19% about three weeks ago!
6

ochone,

Sauchie, Clack's 16/05/2008 00:57:33
livilion, you forgot the all time clincher of we won't be able to get Coronation Street anymore!
7

livilion,

livingston 16/05/2008 00:59:53
Bumsh!t, toleyfart the gemmsa bogey
8

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 16/05/2008 01:11:05
Newsflash from the Ministry of the Bleeding Obvious in Westminster ..........

"Now that we know that the Scottish National Party, at some point, want to break up the United Kingdom,"

I wonder didnt they suspect anything up till now ?
9

Edward,

16/05/2008 01:11:11
I would be interested in knowing when and where the sampling took place for STV's poll
Its also interesting that for the multi option question, second options were not considered, this has shown to be a flaw when doing multi option polls, especially as an actual multi option referendum wold use stv system
Like as always politicians grasp any meager crumbs of comfort
Ive always advocated that a proper opinion poll be carried out accross Scotland sampling at least 1700 to 2000
10

Edward,

16/05/2008 01:16:13
'Mr Brown called for attention to be focused on the "economic and social and political case" in favour of the 300-year-old Union. He said: "It's very important to recognise that the case for the Union must now be put."
Yes bring it on Gordon, just cant wait to hear once again the purile arguements in favour of the Union
Last year we had the 'it would break up families' and 'it would add £ 5000 to every family' and 'border posts' and who could forget 'no more Eastenders' (allthough speaking personally that last one would probably be not a bad thing!)
I would love to hear from anyone actually from the Unionist camp actually set out why the union is good for Scotland and why not being in a union with England would be bad
11

Kipling,

16/05/2008 01:29:17
Both those for an English parliament and those for a Scottish parliament have much in common to work from, particularly a dislike of Labour Unionism. I was sad to hear some within the Campaign for English Democracy recently roll out the criticisms against the Scots for living off English subsidies and likewise the Scots rolls out a similar case of the English living off Scottish oil reserves. Scottish and English nationalists (and I'm not referring to BNP extremists) should work together for a separate future, whether federalist or completely autonomous. There's no reason why the promotion of separate nationhoods has to be bloody or bloody minded.
12

acanthus,

16/05/2008 01:35:13
The SNP will happily take 31% as a starting point before the debate has even begun. Risen as it has in 1 week from 19% then to 25% depending of which Unionist you speak to.

Personally, and i think most people agree, the figure would be around 35% but neverthless let us not forget the 26% of those who are undecided.

Even half of those persuaded would bring the total to 48%.

Then there are those who will be faced with voting for independence or enduring Conservative rule.

Not forgetting the 35% of businessmen who are now more in favour of voting for independence.

Yes, the Unionists are in big big trouble..happy days!
13

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 16/05/2008 01:36:56
This guy is priceless.

He's clearly just discovered the aims of the SNP. Or one of his advisors just told him. But he's forgotten again that Wendy would still welcome a referendum. I think.

Utter garbage from an utter garbage politician.

He needs to get a 'Scottish' spin doctor who knows the right things to say for a Scottish audience because he just makes a fool of himself with comments like these. His English spin doc is much better versed as he made political capital out of the trouble in Manchester by saying that a minority of Rangers (Scottish) fans have jeopordised England's bid to host the World Cup. Clever.
14

acanthus,

16/05/2008 01:38:11
I can hear the slogan now..a vote against independence is a vote for the English Conservatives...lovely!
15

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 16/05/2008 01:38:54
A non-STV poll by STV. Ironic Wendy.
16

Scottish not British,

16/05/2008 01:51:59
Ah yes Gordon Brown truely is special, to think that someone so clueless actually became PM is a wonder. The only way to resolve the issue of independence is to have a referendum, roll on 2010...
17

Edward,

16/05/2008 02:07:50
I noticed John Reid, Chairman of Celtic is still an MP
How can he carry on these tasks?
Why doesnt he resign his seat now and have a by election?
Then again Labour would loose it, just as there about to loose Crewe
18

Castaway,

16/05/2008 02:22:11
The Prime Minister said he would spend the "next few months" making the case for the preservation of the United Kingdom, but this is 2008 so will he have to repeat the "next few months" before the proposed 2010 referendum and then before the 2011 Scottish elections ?
At least he is allocating time in his very busy schedule to think about Scotland, this will divert attention from the Iraq war, economy, low paid etc

We should remember this is the same Gordon Brown: who warned that the SNP's promises, even without independence, will cost Scottish families £5,000 a year. April 3, 2007.

...............a newspaper poll last month that found marginally greater support for independence than for staying in the UK.
This was TNS System Three March 2008 with I agree: 41% - I do not agree: 40% and don't know: 19%.
19

brian mcc,

the arctic 16/05/2008 02:41:31
From an Irish perspective: The walls will come tumbling down, Ireland and Scotland in dual wheel drive. The taste of Independence is sweet.

The digestion of invasion should be flushed down the toilet.
20

Jeeemy,

St Andrews 16/05/2008 03:24:55
Mr Brown called for attention to be focused on the "economic and social and political case" in favour of the 300-year-old Union. He said: "It's very important to recognise that the case for the Union must now be put."


Yes the “economic” case for the union, McCrone Report buried, the value to the treasury of a million £ per hour.

The “Social” case for the union, £150 million of lottery funding to assist in cleaning up industrial waste land in London.

The Political case for the Union, Scotland will send 59 labour MP’s to prop-up the rump of the Labour vote in Westminster.

No Mr Brown, in gaining your history degree a Edinburgh Uni you missed out on one point in particular; “ you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you cant fool al of the people all of the time”

21

Snuffy Ivy,

Aberdeen 16/05/2008 03:27:36
Statistics can mean whatever they're designed to do. Assuming 31% is accurate, can someone tell me what the total voter turnout is likely to be? (Look at the present voter turnout versus the voter register.....the figures are remarkably different). 31% of WHAT?
22

Alec M,

Falkirk 16/05/2008 04:43:10
A few days ago I read that Maggie had said "I'll do everything necessary to save the Union."

Alex, get someone to taste your curries for you!!!

More seriously, Edward (#17) I was surprised too. What might he be claiming in MP's "expenses" before he cedes his seat?
23

Colin Wilson,

16/05/2008 06:33:27
"Mr Brown called for attention to be focused on the "economic and social and political case" in favour of the 300-year-old Union. He said: "It's very important to recognise that the case for the Union must now be put."

Is there one, that isn't based on distortions, ridicule, and downright lies? I haven't heard it.
24

Saul Tyre,

Germany 16/05/2008 06:43:24
The latest poll shows that a massive 43 % want to keep the Union. Only 7 percent points more and half the population will want to stay part of Great Bitain. Gordon Brown can now sleep well in the knowledge that nearly half the Scots support the continuation of the Union.
25

Calvinist,

16/05/2008 06:51:05
Why is Salmond delaying a holding a referendum until 2010? Perhaps the reason is that the fears the outcome. If the outcome is no to independence, then he will look like a discredited fool. If the answer is yes he will loose his reason for existence. Or does he imagine that he will then have the right to rule Scotland for ever and a day?
26

Royster,

16/05/2008 07:05:21
Bit of cheek for us to go out and defend the Union on behalf of the Labour Party. It was the half-wits in the party that endangered the Union in the first place with their breathtakingly incompetent devolution experiment.
27

Jimmy the Pie,

16/05/2008 07:05:46
I watched with horror yesterday's TV footage of the 'defenders' of the Union in action yesterday.

Absolutely horrendous!!

Then I saw the Rangers hooligans in action!

Holyrood was worse
28

Jimmy the Pie,

16/05/2008 07:10:05
#27 Calvanist

I'll put this in very simple terms for you -

If you were selling your house, would you invited some of the football 'supporters' seen on TV yesterday round to watch a match on the tele, before prospective buyers come to view??
29

A Better Way,

Edinburgh 16/05/2008 07:17:31
Why is it Unionists like Calvinist keep trying to imply Alex is afraid of the arguement or the Vote. He is the only politician that has included Independance in his parties manifesto and hasnt diverted from in in anyway. He like the Scottish People cannot wait for the day, and he like the Scottish People does not fear the decision, merely because he knows whatever happens Scotland can only be better of than they have been in three hundred years.

Make your arguement Brown, but dont think you can keep the genie in the bottle about the fact that at present Scots get Ten Billion a year now, when by a simple matter of ticking a box means we get 76 billion per year and make our own decisions. Sounds like a no brainer to me and 5 million other Scots.
30

democracy,

Scottish Borders 16/05/2008 07:25:19
I see #28 Royster, that you must have believed New Labour when they keep telling people they gave Scotland devolution, they didn't, they were forced to do so by EU charter, Blair and Brown never wanted Scotland to have a devolved administration, they were dragged kicking and screaming to do so,under the threat of sanctions, as Westminster was deemed to be governing Scotland illegally in a quasi-colonial fashion and was affecting the case for other members joining the EU. I am fed up of telling Unionists this,
so when you said "their breathtakingly incompetent devolution experiment" it doesn't apply because they had no choice in the matter,end of story!!
31

Number 6,

Germany 16/05/2008 07:25:44
#27 Good Grief ! have you unionistas STILL not got it ?.
32

john z,

edinburgh 16/05/2008 07:28:08
Gordon Brown, as usual is talking garbage. If Scotland became independent, it would not per se break up the united kingdom, but it would remove one player from Great Britain.

Great Britain is, Scotland, England and Wales. The United Kingdom is actually the united kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I am quite sure the United kingdom could continue very well without Scotland.

Of course, it sounds so much more dramatic, for Broon to talk of 'separatism' rather than independence, and to talk near hysterically of the end of the union, which is a bit of an overstatement.

No, the spin doctors of Westminster have ensured Broon uses these silly phrases, in order to do nothing but mis-lead.

Why, for example, will Gordon Brown not ever use the phrase 'Scottish Government', as I cannot think of any other national leader who aims to insult and offend the democratically elected government of any country in the same way he does to Scotland.

Perhaps he needs to remember where his constituency actually is, as the people of Scotland are pretty pleased with the way the SNP Scottish Government is running things.

As regards polls on independence, a third in favour of independence, can translate to a near majority in any referendum, as not everyone will vote. You can be sure however, that those in favour of independence will vote.

Of course the regular publishing of such poor quality referendums is part of the deceit used in the 1970's to defeat independence then. It is no surprise it is being used now. They effectively mean nothing, but can be used to marginalise pro independence people in the public's eye.


33

eric,

16/05/2008 07:32:37
idont believe polls just as i know that 200,thousand rangers fans did not riot.the tory party will be in gvt soon anyway,browns comments are amusing,
34

LEAL,

NORTH 16/05/2008 07:36:20
The Union cannot survive Labour incompetent and sleaze ridden government.I cant think that a Conservative govt in London will persuade Scottish voters to fight to save the union.Opinion in Scotland is fairly evenly divided at the moment on whether to vote for independence or to vote for London control.
It's all to play for.My feeling is that when it comes to the bit...When people get to referendum day...they are more likely to vote for the saltire than the union jack.They are more likely to vote for Salmonds Scotland than Browns Britain.They are more likely to vote for Salmonds Scotland than Camerons Britain.
Gordon Brown can wrap himself in the union jack and make defence of the union his number one priority if he likes,but that would really annoy the voters of England who arent worried whether Scotland leaves the union or not.They expect their PM to be concentrating his efforts on the economic crisis etc.
35

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 16/05/2008 07:39:57
Destroying the Union is neither the best nor the only alternative.

A Federation gives us the best of both worlds.

A Federation should be tried.If it fails then, and only then, should independence be looked at.

A compromise is often the best pragmatic solution.
36

Roy,

16/05/2008 07:40:11
Reasons why an Independence referendum might fail:
Millions of pounds pushed into a 'No' campaign by Labour and Tory central offices.
Low self-esteem ingrained into too many Scots.
England might deport Maggie Broon.
Reasons why it might suceed:
Pride and responsibility might just make folk have the bottle to seize a 'one-off' opportunity to launch new Scotland.
The notion that the SNP might not campaign again for an independence referendum for a generation, should the first one fail, is just too crazy for words.
37

democracy,

Scottish Borders 16/05/2008 07:40:23
The referendum question should be a simple and truthful one and not one which misleads and should be as follows:

Should Scotland continue to be governed by a foreign country? YES or NO
38

Dave from Barra ©,

Western Isles 16/05/2008 07:41:59
"The Prime Minister said he would spend the "next few months" making the case for the preservation of the United Kingdom. He said others across the political spectrum who shared his views "should now be out there defending the Union".

Ok Mr Brown. You have an open invitation to any corner of Scotland to have an open dialogue with us, the good folks of Scotland who are also your Brothers and Sisters.

Try to do your fighting from Westminster Mr Brown and you will find out quickly how indifferent we are to Labour and Westminster and listening to your rhetoric.
39

Alex X,

16/05/2008 08:01:13
This use of "Separatist Forces" is beginning to sound very much like Star Wars with Brown as Darth Vader reperesenting the Empire, aboard the Westminster Death Star and Salmond as co as the Rebels.

We all know who Jackie the Hutt is, but which one is the WENDY?
40

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 16/05/2008 08:02:33
Its about time somebody made a case for the union. Maybe then we wont have to deal with so many lies baseless opinions and pure idiotic fantasy.
We might even get a real debate finally.
41

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 16/05/2008 08:04:02
37

Federation without seperation and how does that work then?? How do we become a Federation without disolving the act of union???
42

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 16/05/2008 08:37:50
37

Are you that stupid you believe the Scots the English the Welsh and the Northern Irish will all be willing to give up their national identities in order to become part of a federation state of Britain??
And you think this can be acheived without dissolving the act of union between the KINGDOMS OF SCOTLAND AND ENGLAND???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Time for a new logon dont you think????
43

Fairfax,

16/05/2008 08:39:58
democracy (32): "they were dragged kicking and screaming to do so,under the threat of sanctions, as Westminster was deemed to be governing Scotland illegally in a quasi-colonial fashion and was affecting the case for other members joining the EU"

I think this is an urban myth, but can you provide references? The EU tolerates many quasi-colonial arrangements, in fact, such as Andorra. The remnants of the French overseas empire, the Departements D'outre Mer, are essentially still quasi-colonial in practice.
44

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 16/05/2008 08:42:59
32

They were forced to do so by what they perceived to be the growing threat of independence.
I dont know or even care if the EU had any part in it but we wouldnt be where we are today with our own parliament without the Independence movement EU or no EU.
45

brownlie,

16/05/2008 08:46:59
38 Roy

Labour Central Office does not have millions to spend as they are millions in debt under Gordon Brown's leadership.

Co-incidentally - the UK is getting into more and more debt under Gordon Brown's leadership.

Quite significant that Brown is going to spend the next few months putting forward the case for the unionist cause.

That would suggest that he is going to go for a referendum in an attempt to spike the SNP's guns.

It would be pointless to campaign for the next few months and then stop campaigning prior to the SNP's proposed referendum in 2010.

All us unionists can hope for in the next few months will be the media churning out the "sky is falling", "doom and gloom" in an independent Scotland and, perhaps, the odd "dodgy dossier".
46

Alan B,

16/05/2008 08:50:14
Brown is undermining the union by not sorting out the mess they made with devolution and by picking needless fights with the scottish government.

Rather than use calman to sort out the problems with devolution he has manipulated it, vetoing potential members to try to control the outcome.

As i see it there a 2 overarching reasons for independence.
1)because u believe scotland would be better run by representatives voted in by scotland and this would address scotlands problems and issues.
2)because we do not get a good deal from the union. Mainly because unionist politicians sell scotland and its interests out for their own or their parties interests. That has been very obvious with brown.

if the union is too survive, much more power has to be devolved. Conceptually it is stupid to have devolution and not devolve powers in many areas.

Having said that one thing is noticable, unionist supporters in general cannot find any good reasons for the union. The only reason is some vague emotional attachment. That in itself is part of the problem with the union (as it is also evident in unionist politicians). They have an emotional attachment to it, but cannot find tangiable reasons for it to continue. The results in a poor poor deal for scotland.
47

Fairfax,

16/05/2008 08:50:20
Foulkes (48): "They were forced to do so by what they perceived to be the growing threat of independence."

This is not my memory of 1997. There was no particular threat in 1997: Scotland had just voted Labour -- a landslide for them, across the UK, of course. Blair and Brown inherited the devolution promise from John Smith's time as leader. I agree that many Labour arguments from the time argued that devolution would damage nationalists.
48

scottish person,

paisley 16/05/2008 08:57:11
Who cares what face in trough foulkes has to say, and since when have the SNP become enemies. They are the only party who are interested in Scottish people. We seen how the unionists behaved the other night in Manchester.
49

Guga II,

Rockall 16/05/2008 09:00:03
If Maggie Broon is so sure of himself, and his support for a defunct and archaic Union, then why doesn't he, as an unelected Prime Monster, call a general election now. Bring it on Maggie.
50

Vote UKIP in the 2009 EU elections!,

16/05/2008 09:01:41
Perhaps people will start to vote UKIP. We need to use the 2009 Euro elections as an opportunity to have a say on the EU Constitution.

Liar Brown et al think they have got away with denying us a referendum. They've shown their contempt for the British citizen. Some MEPs have already called for the Irish referendum to be non-binding. Clearly scared of public opinion. Of course, it'll only be non-binding with a 'no' vote.
51

Nikostratos,

16/05/2008 09:03:18
Another opinion poll different result but one trend remains clear people given the choice always prefer a devolved Government with more powers over 'Independence'

Perhaps the snp raving loony barmy mad 'Independeistas' would do better to take a long term gradualist approach.
Given if they lost a Referendum they would be unable to return to this Question again for 25 years. Unless of course they dump Alex.

And if the people chose more devolved powers within the 'union' they may never get another chance ever again.


#50 Alan B

You hear many good reasons every day you just do not want hear..........It the dialogue of the deaf I'm afraid.


you are right about the 'emotional attachment' to the 'Union' but then they are always the strongest..........Look at it this way Alan B what would you give to save your Family?...Everything

#53

Why doesnt Alex call for an immediate referendum Guga he got enough support in the scottish Parliament..........Bring it on Alex
52

1745,

Edinburgh 16/05/2008 09:08:45
In which part of Scotland are these polls conducted? Who chooses the people to be asked the questions? I have yet to meet anyone in Edinburgh who has had the privilege of being asked the question on Independence.
More info please.
53

Vote UKIP in the 2009 EU elections!,

16/05/2008 09:09:19
For SNP supporters.

Let's not forget that your beloved EU has striped Scotland of her fishing rights, destroyed post offices etc. Official EU maps divide the UK up, not along Scottish, English, Welsh and Irish lines, but deliberately throught the middle in order to destroy our country. Living in Fife, I'm in the North Sea Region, which includes most of the east coast of England, parts of northern Europe and Scandanavian countries. Then you have the North Atlantic Region and Atlantic Region. Which part does the SNP represent?

The real question is: shouldn't Alex Salmond be demanding independence from the EU dictatorship? The SNP has clearly been bought off by the EU.

New EU map makes Kent part of same 'nation' as France
By Jasper Copping and Melissa Kite
Last Updated: 12:05AM BST 03/09/2006
54

yockel,

16/05/2008 09:09:23
"Battle to save the Union," Game on then. Unlike the recession which is still a "what crisis."
55

Ananurhing,

16/05/2008 09:20:38
" Rise against the Seperatist forces"

"There are people who's only mission in life is to break up the union."

Oh mercy, has the evil empire invaded?
What can we do to save the union and mankind?
I've heard that these "seperatist forces" skewer and eat babies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Poor Broon. He just doesn't know how to connect........
with anyone. No empathy. He can't even scaremonger very well. At least Blair could fake empathy.
56

Fairfax,

16/05/2008 09:21:02
1745 (56): Most polls, of any type, involve a sample of (typically) a few thousand people at most, so any single person's chance of knowing someone polled is tiny.
57

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 16/05/2008 09:26:58
Broon to save the union eh??

And with UUendy at his side how can he possibly fail?!?

Heh, heh.


And Mr Vote UKIP,.........1 union at a time mate!

Scotland HAS had a duff deal out of the EU but most of that is due to the UK rep selling Scottish interest down the river. After the union of 1707 is binned we will be in a better position to assess if the EU is for us or agin us. WE will then be able to decide on that after some time and consideration. After all, Greenland looked at the EU and said No Thanks; Norway has NEVER been in and has no plans to. Who knows what WE may decide at the apropriate time. That time is not now, however. One at a time.
58

Phil C,

16/05/2008 09:29:26
Another misleading headline. According to the report Brown didn't even mention a referendum! Just more hot air.

The (meaningless) poll result 'INDEPENDENCE SUPPORT AT 31%'
could have been 'UNION SUPPORT AT 43%'

Give us all a break. Polls are pretty much irrelevent, even the 51% pro-independence ones!

It was 'kind of' agreed by Labour that they wouldn't stand in the way of a referendum in 2009/2010. The SNP won an election based on a 2010 pledge. So let's get the whole thing organised and stop these unionist diversions to running the country.
59

Tommy Trout,

Alicante, Spain 16/05/2008 09:30:17
On a number of occasions I have asked this question, but no one has every been able to supplied the answer, it is:
Britain (read England) painted the world map red, with the help of a lot of Scots, Irish & Welsh. Now that the Empire is defunct, how many countries of the old Empire did England leave voluntarily without having to be chase or bombed out off? Not many I think...I can't name any off the top of my head.
So, the message is be prepared for a long, hard, dirty battle to get your independence as England will hold on tooth and nail to it's last facade of Empire.
60

megz,

glasgow 16/05/2008 09:30:19
Gordon brown is probably the most disliked politician in the uk, followed closely by wendy alexander is he really the best placed person to save the union? Labour are the nasty & negative party (anyone seen their crewe class war campaign?) Scotland needs a positive vision, and a desire to make the country better not being told to stick to the status quo.
61

subrosa,

16/05/2008 09:33:41
"Mr Brown called for attention to be focused on the "economic and social and political case"

He could have made it much simpler for the masses to understand by saying "the reason I'm defending the union is oil, oil, oil"
62

Urban Guerrilla,

Edinburgh 16/05/2008 09:36:18
The advantage of the Union for Gordon Brown is that it allows him to be Prime Minister of a much bigger country!
63

glassbenmhor,

16/05/2008 09:37:17
Can any Unionist of whatever persuasion give me one single solid financially backed up reason for staying within the Union??????
64

Phil C,

16/05/2008 09:38:21
#63 TT

It's ok. We'll just send our new Scottish regiment to the front line. One look at the Loyal Rangers Dragon Guards and their whistelling band and the English will run a mile! Mind you they bat for the other side most of the time, so maybe not.
65

glassbenmhor,

16/05/2008 09:38:56
67#

as opposed to Chairperson of North Queensferry Community Council
66

glassbenmhor,

16/05/2008 09:40:31
TAKING BETS ON GORDON BROWN RETAINING HIS DEPOSIT
67

glassbenmhor,

16/05/2008 09:45:16
Not a Celtic or Hibs of any fan,

Who said it was the Scots at the riot in Manchester,

All I saw was a "Sea of Butchers' Aprons"

and here being the "BIG ISSUE" 'Aprons'

Well just like Mr. McChatterer's cassock it's time to put them in the cupboard!
68

megz,

glasgow 16/05/2008 09:45:41
#67 (i'm not a unionist though) Well financial reasons are plenty.

1. michael martin would get to keep buying art and whatever else his little heart desires with his expenses and his wife can get a taxi everywhere.
2. all the labour MPs will be able to keep their jobs and hefty expenses
3. Oil revenuse are going to brng the treasury a fortune (ontop of what they have had over the passed 30 years) once the oil price rises even further

can't really think of any financial reasons any non politicians would want to stay in the union though.
69

Vivas,

Edinburgh 16/05/2008 09:56:50
31% is a decent baseline. I honestly don't know if independence can be won in 2 years time, but anything over 40% will be a strong result and encouragement to keep heaving 'awa. The next referndum after that would be within 5 to 10 years (none of this "not for a generation" guff) and quite likely after the tories have bedded in for a lifetime of government at Westminster.
70

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 16/05/2008 10:04:30
63 Tommy Trout
Are you saying that the British were bombed/chased out of the following countries :
Australia, Canada , New Zealand, Jamaica, Barbados, Bermuda, Fiji, Ghana, Nigeria, Singapore, Hong Kong etc. etc. etc
I would be interested to learn of any historical evidence to support this.
The vast majority of former Empire countries achieved autonomy with no or very little form of violence.
Even in those where movements against the Empire were active (Malaya, Cyprus, Kenya etc.) autonomy was granted on an agreed negotiated basis- the Cyprus govt. still accepts UK armed forces Malaya, Kenya etc are still part of the Commonwealth.
Your implied assertion that The British were "bombed or chased" of all of its colonies flies in the face of reality.
71

All Politicians are the same,

Scotland 16/05/2008 10:09:07
The support for Independence has been sattionary for years, the biggest problem the SNP have is voter apathy and a "better the devil you know" attitude.

#73 Even Alex salmond has said that it can only be a once in a generation question.
72

Calum10,

16/05/2008 10:13:01
These poll figures are yet again in line with recent polls, and shows that everything is to play for. A poll of polls shows that support for independence and support for the union is about even. That in itself is a blow to unionism.
73

Jimmy the Pie,

16/05/2008 10:13:56
The thought of Our Dear Leader, Comrade Broon, and his trusty lieutenants, Humiliated Red Wendy, Screaming Harridan Curran and Lard Foolkes going around Scotland 'saving' the Union fills me with anticipation.

Bring it on!!
74

Border Scot,

16/05/2008 10:17:02
#74 - He was just spouting anti-English nonsense from Spain. Such people are an embarrassment to Scotland and best not indulged.
75

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 16/05/2008 10:19:57
The desire for independence is shared by many Scots at home and abroad.It is also the norm in most of the world.It is a legitamate aim.I think that Gordon Brown's recent attack on the very natural desire to be independent is motivated by self interest.The SNP are a major political threat to Labour at the next election.This reduces his chances of winning.

While it is also legitimate to argue for the union I wish that Brown could be truthful.Recently he claimed that the SNP were dropping their manifesto committment by delaying a referendum until 2010 (untrue).Now he is saying that the SNP want to break up the United Kindom.Since the UK refers to the union of the crowns,that is also untrue.In fact Alec Salmond pointed out recently that Scotland and England had shared a single crown for 100 years ,when both had been independent countries.He also uses tjhe term seperatists to imply isolation.If he means sepperate parliaments,we already have that situation.The only problem is that they are not equal.There is no possibility of a regional parliament achieving outcomes achieved by a fully independent parliament (like the Finnish Parliament in Helsinki).If another parliament decides how much of Scotlands money they can get back,or what some of it will be spent on (Trident,Wars in Iraq etc)this places a big limitation on what the Scottish Parliament can achieve.

What we are witnessing is the last throw from yesterdays man.Change in the nature of the relationship between Edinburgh and Scotland,and Scotland's role in Europe,is coming anyway.We just do not know when.Gordon Browns attempts to prevent change makes him look like King Canute.
76

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

16/05/2008 10:21:08
I am somewhat bermused that the Nats here attack Brown for defending the union. What else do they expect him to do?

It's like expecting Alex Salmond not to push for independence - it just would not happen.

As for the polls - even though I am not a great fan of them - the interesting figure is the 26% who are undecided. That gives some support to my gut feeling that support for both the union and for independence is soft. That of course may change once voters are actually faced with the reality of making a decision - there may be a hardening of attitudes and a reconsideration of some people's stance - the undecideds figure may fall the closer we get to having a referendum.
77

Fairfax,

16/05/2008 10:24:02
Tommy Trout (63): "Now that the Empire is defunct, how many countries of the old Empire did England leave voluntarily without having to be chase or bombed out off?"

Canada, Australia, New Zealand come to mind. We also left India and much of Africa voluntarily. By most imperial standards that's fairly civilized -- consider, for example, French Indo-China and Algeria, or Dutch Indonesia.

It's interesting that you view the Empire as English: would you suggest renaming it the English Empire in Scottish history books? You can then include the line "The English Empire was the largest in the world" in schoolbooks.
78

Jwil,

16/05/2008 10:25:15
I think their fight back has already started by nobbling the Herald to stop posting on political articles. As we know, the first action of a dictatorship is censorship!
79

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

16/05/2008 10:28:21
#50 "Having said that one thing is noticable, unionist supporters in general cannot find any good reasons for the union. The only reason is some vague emotional attachment. That in itself is part of the problem with the union (as it is also evident in unionist politicians). They have an emotional attachment to it, but cannot find tangiable reasons for it to continue."

One could argue that the same is true for many supporters of independence. As I have said before most unionists do not understand the mindset of nationalists and most nationalists don't understand the mindset of unionists.
80

Fairfax,

16/05/2008 10:31:59
glass (67): "Can any Unionist of whatever persuasion give me one single solid financially backed up reason for staying within the Union??????"

I'm not a Unionist, so take the following as playing devil's advocate only: The largest economic partner for Scotland is England. If England becomes a bitter rival after independence, then it would be possible to close Scotland to English trade entirely, including all financial access. RBS and HBOS would then be reduced to shadows of their former selves, as would the Scottish insurance industry. It would even be possible to close Scotland entirely to food exports, at relatively low cost to England: all of those items marked "British", not "Scottish", are of course from England.

Of course, Scotland would still have oil, but what if English money funds English settlers in the Orkneys and Shetland before independence (easily done over one year, at relatively small cost), leading to Scotland losing control of much of its oil wealth? I really don't know why billionaires haven't thought of this already: a single data-storage company, exporting, say, 4000 people, would costs millions per year, but the possible oil wealth control after independence would be worth trillions . . .

81

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

16/05/2008 10:35:44
#64 You'll be surprised - my own grandfather loathes Brown - but he hates Alex Salmond's "smug, smarmy puss" more - his words not mine by the way.

Personally, I don't loathe Brown, I actually have sympathy for someone who is quite clearly out of his depth and only got the job because it was Buggin's turn. As for Salmond - my grandfather is probably right that he does come across (sometimes) as smary and arrogant - but when you are possibly one of the most able politicians of your generation then you can afford to be.
82

Ananurhing,

16/05/2008 10:36:39
The Fed 80#
"I am somewhat bermused that the Nats here attack Brown for defending the union. What else do they expect him to do?"

Perhaps he could try not treating us like idiots, and perhaps use some reasoned intelligent debate!
Or does he realise that would be walking into a "seperatists" trap.
83

Fairfax,

16/05/2008 10:38:04
PhilC (68): "One look at the Loyal Rangers Dragon Guards and their whistelling band and the English will run a mile! Mind you they bat for the other side most of the time"

Nationalism and homophobia in one post: who would have thought it from the progressive civic nationalism of Scotland? I'm shocked . . .

However, I'm surprised that I can't find historical evidence for Scottish victories over the English for some centuries. Certainly not in the 17th century, when Cromwell defeated, then conquered, all of Scotland in the early 1650s -- Scotland was abolished, becoming a mere region of the Commonwealth of England, until the Restoration in 1660. Certainly not in the 16th century, when the Scots lost their king, and many nobles, after their unprovoked invasion of England was annihilated at Flodden (and you also lost your queen later that century, but that was hardly a tragedy). In fact, we have to go back some 700 years to find a significant Scottish victory: hardly a good track record.
84

Fairfax,

16/05/2008 10:41:30
Border Scot (78): "He was just spouting anti-English nonsense from Spain. Such people are an embarrassment to Scotland and best not indulged."

It's good to hear that, and I hope you're correct, but suspect you're over-optimistic: I fear we will see this form of ethnic nationalism increase in both England and Scotland.
85

Jock 1O7,

16/05/2008 10:43:04
46 Cyberunt, Edinburgh

I see you've discovered the heavy intellectual impact of repeated question marks again, haven't you???

Answer a comment with a question - very powerful, yes indeed. Not a copout at all, no, not even a wee bit, wouldn't you agree??

(Hi Fi)
86

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 16/05/2008 10:48:30
89 Fock 107

And your contibution is what again????
87

Fairfax,

16/05/2008 10:48:59
Suomi (79): "In fact Alec Salmond pointed out recently that Scotland and England had shared a single crown for 100 years ,when both had been independent countries."

In fact it's technically a mere 95 years: Scotland was assimilated into the English Commonwealth by Cromwell in 1651, following Scottish defeats at Dunbar and Worcester, which assimilation continued until the restoration in 1660 -- isn't it surprising that Scotland celebrates Bannockburn but neglects the more complex history of the 17th century? Teasing to one side, it is difficult to take the view that the two nations were independent during the Civil War, from 1642 onwards, since Parliamentary and Royalist sides cooperated on both sides of the border.
88

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 16/05/2008 10:49:48
83

And yet you cant answer a simple question regarding your own so called Federalist credentials.
89

Foulkes Off the CyberNat,

Edinburgh 16/05/2008 10:54:38
51

Dont be a tube the Nationalist threat to the Union was percieved as far back as their conception in 1934.
Their members were put under scrutiny by Special branch. Their phones were bugged and Westminster had a political fit in 1974 when they won 11 seats.
Hence the suppression of the McCrone report.
90

Jock 1O7,

16/05/2008 10:55:26
90 Cyberunt

You just don't get it, do you..?