AFTER a year of SNP government, the burning question is whether Scotland is any closer to independence. The first of a series of eight ScotsmanDebates took this key question as a starting point to look at where Scotland goes now.
A panel made up of Nicola Sturgeon, the deputy First Minister, Malcolm Chisholm, Labour's constitutional spokesman, Murdo Fraser, deputy leader of the Scottish Tories, Nicol Stephen, the Scottish Lib Dems' leader, Patrick Harvie, a Green MSP, Margo MacDonald, the independent MSP, and leading historian Tom Devine did battle on the issue that dominates Scottish politics.
The scene had been set three weeks ago when Wendy Alexander, the Scottish Labour leader, astonished us all with the call for Alex Salmond to "bring it on".
The debate at Edinburgh University's George Square Lecture Theatre was chaired by Michael Crow, host of STV's Politics Now. He and members of the 400-strong audience put the questions to the panel.
A YEAR ON FROM THE SNP VICTORY, ARE WE ANY NEARER TO INDEPENDENCE? Malcolm Chisholm (MC): I don't think we are. Polls show that while the SNP is quite popular with some people, independence is less popular than staying in the United Kingdom.
Patrick Harvie (PH): Yes, but not much. We are clearly closer to a referendum because, thanks to Wendy Alexander, it would be difficult for Labour now to oppose one. But we need a discussion on what independence means. That has to be a discussion led by ordinary people rather than political parties. Personally, I would like independence from oil.
Tom Devine (TD): It's difficult to say from the polls because they change over time. There was a year (1991-2) when expectations were high, with independence riding at over 51 per cent in the polls with the hope Scotland would rise and be a nation again, but it came to nothing. So we should be very careful about how we read polls. I do think the election of a Conservative government at Westminster, especially with an overwhelming landslide majority, would lead to a worsening of the relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK. It may not lead to independence, but it may lead a crisis within the Union state.
Margo MacDonald (MM): We need to move away from talking about independence and what the polls say. Who cares about them? We need to talk about what independence means and then have a referendum when we have an answer.
Which powers do you want? Do you want to represent yourself in Europe? Do you want sovereign powers over your taxation system? Do you want sovereign powers on defence and foreign policy?
Nicola Sturgeon (NStu): Of course, I believe we are closer to independence than a year ago; if I didn't say that, I know what would be on the front page of tomorrow's Scotsman. One of the reasons is because people have seen an SNP-led Scottish Government using powers better than what had happened in the previous eight years under the Labour/ Lib Dem executive. But I agree we need to look at what we mean by independence. I want independence, but I am very much in favour of a social union continuing with other parts of the UK.
Nicol Stephen (NSte): Closer to independence? I believe not. The polls show people support the view of the Lib Dems that there should be home rule for Scotland, but not independence.
WOULD A CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT IN WESTMINSTER BRING INDEPENDENCE CLOSER?Murdo Fraser (MF): I don't think so. The polls show David Cameron has a +19 per cent rating in Scotland compared to Gordon Brown's -21 per cent. I don't think it's crucial for us to win lots more seats here at the general election. I think David Cameron will be respectful of the devolved government here and, unlike Gordon Brown, will not seek to have conflicts with it.
(David Mundell, Scotland's only Tory MP, has said he wanted to get a people carrier-full of Conservative MPs at the next Westminster election and, after persistent questioning, MF accepted that seven MPs – a normal people carrier – would be a good result. N Ste pointed out that seats could be taken in and out of a people carrier].
TD: If we have a Conservative UK government, with the continuing economic crisis along with the fact that David Cameron is talking about things like reviewing the Barnett Formula, there could be a massive and overwhelming landslide majority in favour of independence. Unions of countries that break up are often just a reasonably short time after they got together. It would be very unusual for two countries that have been together as long as 300 years to split.
WOULD THE SNP PREFER TO HAVE A CONSERVATIVE OR LABOUR-LED UK GOVERNMENT?NStu: I know many people in Scotland would have a real issue with a Tory UK government because of what happened in the 1980s and 1990s. But if you look at things now, Labour have not exactly been helpful for Scotland. Really it makes no difference for us – we will just continue to make the positive argument for independence.
WHY DO WE HAVE TO WAIT TWO YEARS FOR A REFERENDUM? WOULD THE SNP WIN A REFERENDUM HELD NOW?MM: Why not hold the referendum next year at the same time as the European elections? Then people could think about why we are not directly represented on the Council of Ministers and what powers we would like to represent Scotland.
Frankly, I don't think we would get independence. Westminster would say to Scotland, 'Don't worry your pretty little head about it – we will run your referendum. We've run them before and we know exactly how to fix them.'
NStu: We said we would bring forward a referendum in 2010 in our manifesto. I think that is the right thing to do because it gives us time to hold the National Conversation and for people to see how well the SNP do in government. I think we could win a referendum now. That's partly because some of the issues facing us now, like high fuel prices at a time when Scotland's huge oil revenues are going down to London, make people angry.
MC: I don't think they would win a referendum now because most people in Scotland want to stay in the UK. But I don't see why we should wait for a referendum. The issue is not dependent on the fortunes of a particular political party – it should stand alone.
MF: What worries me is if we had a referendum now with Gordon Brown and Wendy Alexander as cheerleaders for the Union, it could become a referendum on them and their unpopularity.
WHAT QUESTION SHOULD BE IN A REFERENDUM?MC: It should be, 'Do you want to stay in the UK? Yes or no'.
NStu: I think a referendum on independence without the word independence in it would be ridiculous.
WOULD A REFERENDUM BE A ONCE-IN-A-GENERATION EVENT AS FIRST MINISTER ALEX SALMOND SAID? WOULD THE SNP HAVE IT IN THEIR MANIFESTO IF THEY LOST?NStu: The First Minister was expressing a personal view. My view is a referendum is a once-in-a-generation event. I can't tell future leaders of the SNP what should be in their manifesto, but I don't think we could put a referendum in the manifesto if we lost. But this is a hypothetical question and I don't believe we would lose.
WHAT NEW POWERS DO THE UNIONIST PARTY PANELLISTS THINK THE SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT SHOULD HAVE?MC: I have long argued that the Scottish Parliament should have much greater financial powers.
NSte: Clearly, greater financial powers is the main thing, including oil revenue. That is what we have always argued for.
MF: I'm a bit of a Tory heretic on this issue. I wrote a paper in 1998 arguing that the Scottish Parliament should have more powers over financial affairs, but I don't want to go too far in case I get a handbagging tomorrow (from Annabel Goldie].
TD: My personal gripe is over broadcasting. I would like to see broadcasting powers brought to Scotland. The BBC in Scotland is very poor and Radio Scotland is a national embarrassment.
NStu: I would not disagree with that.
WHAT POWERS SHOULD BE RESERVED TO WESTMINSTER?NSte: Defence, some aspects of macro-economic policy and foreign affairs.
MC: We are stronger being represented as part of the UK in the European Union than we would be alone.
PH: That's nonsense. If Scotland was independent, it would have more seats on the Council of Ministers, more seats in the European Parliament and be able to argue for policies that benefit Scotland. As far as defence goes, that means we have to accept nuclear weapons in the Clyde.
If there is one thing that makes me support independence, it is the thought of Scotland getting rid of the nuclear weapons.
WHY DO THE LIB DEMS SUPPORT A REFERENDUM ON EUROPEAN UNION MEMBERSHIP BUT NOT ON SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE?NSte: We are not completely opposed to referendums. We would consider a referendum if the Calman commission proposes a referendum. I can't think of a party that wants a referendum on an issue it's opposed to.
PH: (shaking his head] I think the contradictions of the Lib Dem view are clear to everybody.
COULD SCOTLAND RUN ITS OWN AFFAIRS?MC: Of course it can, the question is whether it is better off in the UK or not. I happen to believe it is and I think most people agree with me.
MM: Well, we were told in the 1970s and 1980s we were too small, too weak, too stupid to run our own affairs. I remember the build-up to the 1979 (independence] referendum was an exercise in lowering the aspirations and self-belief of people in Scotland.
NStu: Of course. But it is interesting to here what Malcolm has to say after the election campaign where Labour suggested the world might end if Scotland was independent.
MF: There's no doubt about that. But it is interesting that there is not a person in the Scottish Parliament who believes in complete independence.
We have heard Nicola Sturgeon tonight talking about a social union with the rest of the countries in the UK.
The SNP also would not take Scotland out of Europe, so it is all a question of where we share our powers and what powers we share.
IMAGINE THE MORNING AFTER INDEPENDENCE, WOULD THERE BE A FLOW OF PEOPLE COMING IN OR OUT OF THE COUNTRY?MM: I think most people would be in their beds sleeping off a good night.
NStu: I think people would be coming to Scotland because independence would make us a more confident country and we would have a lot of people returning home.
TD: I'd like to think that a few more people might be coming in. We have an immigration policy that is not fit for purpose for Scotland. It is developed for the needs of the south-east of England and that would be one of the first things we would need to change.
MC: I certainly would be here. But these things depend on the economy and quality of life in Scotland.
PH: I think we would have a much more welcoming immigration policy that would see people coming in. But the important thing here is that Scotland is independent in spirit, why not see what we could do if we are independent in fact?
WHAT NEXT?THERE are seven more events in the ScotsmanDebates series, supported by research and consultancy company Blake Stevenson. They are:
ENVIRONMENT AND ECONOMY, Town House, Aberdeen, 2 June, 7pm. (chair Bill Jamieson, panel includes Cllr Martin Ford, CBI and RSPB).
FUTURE OF THE ISLANDS, Sgoil Lionacleit, Benbecula, 24 June, 7pm. (chair Lesley Riddoch).
THE ARTS IN SCOTLAND, Traverse Theatre, Edinburgh, 28 August, 7pm.
FUTURE OF THE MILITARY IN SCOTLAND, Victoria Halls, Helensburgh, 24 September, 7pm.
IS SCOTLAND MAKING A MESS OF RENEWABLE ENERGY? Town Hall, Jedburgh, 14 October, 7pm.
THE MEDIA SCOTLAND WANTS, Mitchell Library, Glasgow 24 Oct, 7pm
PROGRESS BEYOND POLITICS, Albert Halls, Stirling, 4 December, 7pm
To order tickets, e-mail
scotsmandebates@scotsman.com or write to David Lee, ScotsmanDebates, The Scotsman, 108 Holyrood Road, Edinburgh, EH8 8AS. State which debate(s) you wish to attend, number of tickets and give a phone number.
The full article contains 2079 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.