Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Tuesday, 2nd December 2008 Change Date

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Scotsman debate: Independence the divisive issue in Scotland's future



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 30 May 2008
AFTER a year of SNP government, the burning question is whether Scotland is any closer to independence. The first of a series of eight ScotsmanDebates took this key question as a starting point to look at where Scotland goes now.
A panel made up of Nicola Sturgeon, the deputy First Minister, Malcolm Chisholm, Labour's constitutional spokesman, Murdo Fraser, deputy leader of the Scottish Tories, Nicol Stephen, the Scottish Lib Dems' leader, Patrick Harvie, a Green MSP, Margo MacDonald, the independent MSP, and leading historian Tom Devine did battle on the issue that dominates Scottish politics.

The scene had been set three weeks ago when Wendy Alexander, the Scottish Labour leader, astonished us all with the call for Alex Salmond to "bring it on".

The debate at Edinburgh University's George Square Lecture Theatre was chaired by Michael Crow, host of STV's Politics Now. He and members of the 400-strong audience put the questions to the panel.

A YEAR ON FROM THE SNP VICTORY, ARE WE ANY NEARER TO INDEPENDENCE?

Malcolm Chisholm (MC): I don't think we are. Polls show that while the SNP is quite popular with some people, independence is less popular than staying in the United Kingdom.

Patrick Harvie (PH): Yes, but not much. We are clearly closer to a referendum because, thanks to Wendy Alexander, it would be difficult for Labour now to oppose one. But we need a discussion on what independence means. That has to be a discussion led by ordinary people rather than political parties. Personally, I would like independence from oil.

Tom Devine (TD): It's difficult to say from the polls because they change over time. There was a year (1991-2) when expectations were high, with independence riding at over 51 per cent in the polls with the hope Scotland would rise and be a nation again, but it came to nothing. So we should be very careful about how we read polls. I do think the election of a Conservative government at Westminster, especially with an overwhelming landslide majority, would lead to a worsening of the relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK. It may not lead to independence, but it may lead a crisis within the Union state.

Margo MacDonald (MM): We need to move away from talking about independence and what the polls say. Who cares about them? We need to talk about what independence means and then have a referendum when we have an answer.

Which powers do you want? Do you want to represent yourself in Europe? Do you want sovereign powers over your taxation system? Do you want sovereign powers on defence and foreign policy?

Nicola Sturgeon (NStu): Of course, I believe we are closer to independence than a year ago; if I didn't say that, I know what would be on the front page of tomorrow's Scotsman. One of the reasons is because people have seen an SNP-led Scottish Government using powers better than what had happened in the previous eight years under the Labour/ Lib Dem executive. But I agree we need to look at what we mean by independence. I want independence, but I am very much in favour of a social union continuing with other parts of the UK.

Nicol Stephen (NSte): Closer to independence? I believe not. The polls show people support the view of the Lib Dems that there should be home rule for Scotland, but not independence.

WOULD A CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT IN WESTMINSTER BRING INDEPENDENCE CLOSER?

Murdo Fraser (MF): I don't think so. The polls show David Cameron has a +19 per cent rating in Scotland compared to Gordon Brown's -21 per cent. I don't think it's crucial for us to win lots more seats here at the general election. I think David Cameron will be respectful of the devolved government here and, unlike Gordon Brown, will not seek to have conflicts with it.

(David Mundell, Scotland's only Tory MP, has said he wanted to get a people carrier-full of Conservative MPs at the next Westminster election and, after persistent questioning, MF accepted that seven MPs – a normal people carrier – would be a good result. N Ste pointed out that seats could be taken in and out of a people carrier].

TD: If we have a Conservative UK government, with the continuing economic crisis along with the fact that David Cameron is talking about things like reviewing the Barnett Formula, there could be a massive and overwhelming landslide majority in favour of independence. Unions of countries that break up are often just a reasonably short time after they got together. It would be very unusual for two countries that have been together as long as 300 years to split.

WOULD THE SNP PREFER TO HAVE A CONSERVATIVE OR LABOUR-LED UK GOVERNMENT?

NStu: I know many people in Scotland would have a real issue with a Tory UK government because of what happened in the 1980s and 1990s. But if you look at things now, Labour have not exactly been helpful for Scotland. Really it makes no difference for us – we will just continue to make the positive argument for independence.

WHY DO WE HAVE TO WAIT TWO YEARS FOR A REFERENDUM? WOULD THE SNP WIN A REFERENDUM HELD NOW?

MM: Why not hold the referendum next year at the same time as the European elections? Then people could think about why we are not directly represented on the Council of Ministers and what powers we would like to represent Scotland.

Frankly, I don't think we would get independence. Westminster would say to Scotland, 'Don't worry your pretty little head about it – we will run your referendum. We've run them before and we know exactly how to fix them.'

NStu: We said we would bring forward a referendum in 2010 in our manifesto. I think that is the right thing to do because it gives us time to hold the National Conversation and for people to see how well the SNP do in government. I think we could win a referendum now. That's partly because some of the issues facing us now, like high fuel prices at a time when Scotland's huge oil revenues are going down to London, make people angry.

MC: I don't think they would win a referendum now because most people in Scotland want to stay in the UK. But I don't see why we should wait for a referendum. The issue is not dependent on the fortunes of a particular political party – it should stand alone.

MF: What worries me is if we had a referendum now with Gordon Brown and Wendy Alexander as cheerleaders for the Union, it could become a referendum on them and their unpopularity.

WHAT QUESTION SHOULD BE IN A REFERENDUM?

MC: It should be, 'Do you want to stay in the UK? Yes or no'.

NStu: I think a referendum on independence without the word independence in it would be ridiculous.

WOULD A REFERENDUM BE A ONCE-IN-A-GENERATION EVENT AS FIRST MINISTER ALEX SALMOND SAID? WOULD THE SNP HAVE IT IN THEIR MANIFESTO IF THEY LOST?

NStu: The First Minister was expressing a personal view. My view is a referendum is a once-in-a-generation event. I can't tell future leaders of the SNP what should be in their manifesto, but I don't think we could put a referendum in the manifesto if we lost. But this is a hypothetical question and I don't believe we would lose.

WHAT NEW POWERS DO THE UNIONIST PARTY PANELLISTS THINK THE SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT SHOULD HAVE?

MC: I have long argued that the Scottish Parliament should have much greater financial powers.

NSte: Clearly, greater financial powers is the main thing, including oil revenue. That is what we have always argued for.

MF: I'm a bit of a Tory heretic on this issue. I wrote a paper in 1998 arguing that the Scottish Parliament should have more powers over financial affairs, but I don't want to go too far in case I get a handbagging tomorrow (from Annabel Goldie].

TD: My personal gripe is over broadcasting. I would like to see broadcasting powers brought to Scotland. The BBC in Scotland is very poor and Radio Scotland is a national embarrassment.

NStu: I would not disagree with that.

WHAT POWERS SHOULD BE RESERVED TO WESTMINSTER?

NSte: Defence, some aspects of macro-economic policy and foreign affairs.

MC: We are stronger being represented as part of the UK in the European Union than we would be alone.

PH: That's nonsense. If Scotland was independent, it would have more seats on the Council of Ministers, more seats in the European Parliament and be able to argue for policies that benefit Scotland. As far as defence goes, that means we have to accept nuclear weapons in the Clyde.

If there is one thing that makes me support independence, it is the thought of Scotland getting rid of the nuclear weapons.

WHY DO THE LIB DEMS SUPPORT A REFERENDUM ON EUROPEAN UNION MEMBERSHIP BUT NOT ON SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE?

NSte: We are not completely opposed to referendums. We would consider a referendum if the Calman commission proposes a referendum. I can't think of a party that wants a referendum on an issue it's opposed to.

PH: (shaking his head] I think the contradictions of the Lib Dem view are clear to everybody.

COULD SCOTLAND RUN ITS OWN AFFAIRS?

MC: Of course it can, the question is whether it is better off in the UK or not. I happen to believe it is and I think most people agree with me.

MM: Well, we were told in the 1970s and 1980s we were too small, too weak, too stupid to run our own affairs. I remember the build-up to the 1979 (independence] referendum was an exercise in lowering the aspirations and self-belief of people in Scotland.

NStu: Of course. But it is interesting to here what Malcolm has to say after the election campaign where Labour suggested the world might end if Scotland was independent.

MF: There's no doubt about that. But it is interesting that there is not a person in the Scottish Parliament who believes in complete independence.

We have heard Nicola Sturgeon tonight talking about a social union with the rest of the countries in the UK.

The SNP also would not take Scotland out of Europe, so it is all a question of where we share our powers and what powers we share.

IMAGINE THE MORNING AFTER INDEPENDENCE, WOULD THERE BE A FLOW OF PEOPLE COMING IN OR OUT OF THE COUNTRY?

MM: I think most people would be in their beds sleeping off a good night.

NStu: I think people would be coming to Scotland because independence would make us a more confident country and we would have a lot of people returning home.

TD: I'd like to think that a few more people might be coming in. We have an immigration policy that is not fit for purpose for Scotland. It is developed for the needs of the south-east of England and that would be one of the first things we would need to change.

MC: I certainly would be here. But these things depend on the economy and quality of life in Scotland.

PH: I think we would have a much more welcoming immigration policy that would see people coming in. But the important thing here is that Scotland is independent in spirit, why not see what we could do if we are independent in fact?

WHAT NEXT?

THERE are seven more events in the ScotsmanDebates series, supported by research and consultancy company Blake Stevenson. They are:

ENVIRONMENT AND ECONOMY, Town House, Aberdeen, 2 June, 7pm. (chair Bill Jamieson, panel includes Cllr Martin Ford, CBI and RSPB).

FUTURE OF THE ISLANDS, Sgoil Lionacleit, Benbecula, 24 June, 7pm. (chair Lesley Riddoch).

THE ARTS IN SCOTLAND, Traverse Theatre, Edinburgh, 28 August, 7pm.

FUTURE OF THE MILITARY IN SCOTLAND, Victoria Halls, Helensburgh, 24 September, 7pm.

IS SCOTLAND MAKING A MESS OF RENEWABLE ENERGY? Town Hall, Jedburgh, 14 October, 7pm.

THE MEDIA SCOTLAND WANTS, Mitchell Library, Glasgow 24 Oct, 7pm

PROGRESS BEYOND POLITICS, Albert Halls, Stirling, 4 December, 7pm

To order tickets, e-mail scotsmandebates@scotsman.com or write to David Lee, ScotsmanDebates, The Scotsman, 108 Holyrood Road, Edinburgh, EH8 8AS. State which debate(s) you wish to attend, number of tickets and give a phone number.

The full article contains 2079 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 29 May 2008 10:30 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: The Scotsman Debate
 
1

Jimmy the Pie,

30/05/2008 00:28:08
Independence - that's what we need and soon.
2

Al Ford,

Insch 30/05/2008 00:44:44
Should Scotland have independence?

As the drowning man said when he was asked if he wanted a lifeline thrown to him, "Yes, you idiot, and the sooner the better."
3

truthsleuth,

30/05/2008 01:02:19
The lifeline hit him on the head and he drowned.
4

Castaway,

30/05/2008 01:18:07
Why is the UK (English dominated)Parliament desperate to keep Scotland within the UK ?
Why if we have been such a drain on English resources for so long, why didn't they kick us out years ago ?
5

Jimmy the Pie,

30/05/2008 01:27:57
#4

Good question, which the Unionists have never even addressed never mind answered.
6

Beth Boyle,

NY 30/05/2008 03:04:45
Rome was not built in a day. Ride the wave and see if its meant to be or not.
7

Royster,

30/05/2008 03:23:22
#4. If the English had been so desperate to keep Scotland they would never have voted for the Scotland Act and devolution. Face it..everywhere outside London is a drain on resources.
8

Castaway,

30/05/2008 03:39:53
#7 - If the English had been so desperate to keep Scotland they would never have voted for the Scotland Act and devolution.
It looks to me that Westminster didn't or never wanted Scotland to have any form of devolved Government with the present Scottish Parliament a mistake by Westminster.
Between 1889 and 1914 Parliament debated Scottish home rule 15 times, and introduced four bills on the subject. In 1913 a Home Rule Bill passed its second reading before being defeated at the final vote.
In response to this earlier home rule movement, the Government created the post of Secretary of State for Scotland in 1885 and made a cabinet position for Scotland in 1926, the so-called Scottish Office.
In 1932 The Scottish Daily Express ran a straw poll in 35,000 homes and found 113,000 people in favor of self government and only 5,000 opposed.
In 1968 the then Opposition Conservative Party led by Edward Heath - The Declaration of Perth. The declaration favored devolution and recommended that in Scotland there be created a directly elected body with legislative power.
Why hide the 1974 McCrone report ?
Margaret Thatcher wanted to prevent the creation of a Scottish assembly by amending Labour legislation to allow the English to vote in the 1979 referendum on devolution.
1979 the undemocratic devolution referendum with that silly/daft 40% rule
Thatcher and her successor, John Major, sought to kill of the whole idea of devolving power to a parliament in Scotland.
1997 why PR for the Scottish Parliament ?
Why is the UK (English dominated)Parliament desperate to keep Scotland within the UK ?

9

Colin Wilson,

30/05/2008 06:54:13
NSte: "I can't think of a party that wants a referendum on an issue it's opposed to."

That's Labour's position. Where has the guy been hiding for the last month?
10

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/05/2008 07:09:57
Independence is a confidence trick: we indigenees are Britons! Scotland has never been an independent nation in any modern sense. We are one people and only those who are unaware of our roots, or those who delude themselves that independence can only make things better, fall for this confidence trick. A federal solution is the best and only viable alternative to Union. For every successful small nation I can point out three unsuccessful ones.
11

,

30/05/2008 07:14:17
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
12

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/05/2008 07:21:06
#11 Poor Alberto: his false assumptions and his inability to produce a sensible counter argument!
13

,

30/05/2008 07:40:36
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
14

eric,

30/05/2008 07:46:34
Folks like rules dont seem to understand that the other half of the defunct union dont want us ,theres a huge backlash in England.they look at him as an outsider now,th folk of england are turning.
15

scottish person,

paisley 30/05/2008 08:31:41
Rules, stop posting.
Why are they asking nicol stephen anything? he is a dodo.
Independence is a requirement which Scotland must have soon. I posted that same argument years ago regarding Scotland being a drain on england, so why not let us go. Its the old union jack waving brigade which really sicken me, they just refuse to enter the 21st century.
16

Hmm ...,

30/05/2008 09:08:28
... It wasnae me questions what a "social union" amounts to. At the meeting, I took it to be that the SNP wants economic and legal independence but to keep a loose "family relationship" with our former "partners" in the Union - a sensible way to retain a sense of friendship following the "divorce".

It seems both sensible and friendly and ceratinly doesn't accommodate reliance on them for the provision of health and defence services. We can't rely on them for that now so why would we want to do it then?
17

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/05/2008 09:12:35
#13 Alberto.

Rules is definitely against independence (unless and until the logically superior federal solution has been seriously tried out and failed).

Rules is anti Union, but knows that many small nations are failures.

Once Shetland's oil runs out, or Shetland votes to become independent, Scotland has very little economy left to support its peoples.
18

Nikostratos,

30/05/2008 09:13:30
"

"Nicola Sturgeon (NStu): Of course, I believe we are closer to independence than a year ago; if I didn't say that, I know what would be on the front page of tomorrow's Scotsman"

"I think we could win a referendum now. That's partly because some of the issues facing us now, like high fuel prices at a time when Scotland's huge oil revenues are going down to London, make people angry."


Nicola could say what she believes in and not what is dictated by the Scotsman headlines. The implication is Nicola doesn't truly believe the snp would win a referendum.

although the snp are willing to use the peoples 'Anger' for political benefit. One can speculate if more anger is likely to lead to greater support for Independence is it politically opportune to encourage this with talk of taking revenues to London.
19

Scotland to prosper...,

30/05/2008 09:26:33
#19 Niko

It would be politically opportunistic and wholly un-advised to encourage anger towards the current Westminster government but the fact is, the anger is a genuine feeling amongst the public and needs very little encouragement.

If Scotland were to become independent, the sky wouldn’t fall in, people wouldn’t flee in fear. For the first time in over 300 years, Scots would be in a position to govern themselves and do what is best for the people of Scotland, explain how that can be a bad thing?

Any benefit of staying in the union is all but gone:

we have the two poorest areas in Europe
we have the sickman of Europe label
we have one of the biggest drug problems in western society
we pay criminal prices for fuel

Scotland becoming independent would allow Scottish issues to take centre stage. I’m sick and tired of how little regard Westminster has for Scotland.
20

Hmm ...,

30/05/2008 09:32:44
... Rules maintains that Scotland has very little industry left to support its people and this is undeniable but unlikely to improve as things stand. The industrial asset striipping started by Maggie Thatcher's drive for a leaner fitter Britain amounted to little more than the drawing into England of as much of Britain's business as possible by the take over and absorption of Scottish businesses by their larger English competitors. A couple of years after "amalgamation", the English parent would "rationalise" by closing the Scottish factory and moving the brand south. An example was Keillers, a Dundee company famous for developing marmalade as well as sweets and confectionery. It was sold to Robertsons of Manchester and the sweet production passed to Callard & Bowser. Both moved production south and gave the factory to the workers who struggled on for a while. Last time I saw it, the factory lay empty. This also happened to my own employer, which was an Edinburgh based quoted public company and was very highly respected in its industry. It was taken over by a London company, "amalgamated with" a sleepy south coast competitor and in Edinburgh now amounts only to a couple of call centres.

As I said, within the Union, this is unlikely to change, not that Labour cares. The SNP undeniably does care about the Scottish economy.
21

Hmm ...,

30/05/2008 09:43:04
...It wasnae me (20) said "You haven't answered my question. What does 'economic and legal independence' mean? And what is a 'loose family relationship'? The problem I have with the question of independence is that nobody seems to be able to explain exactly what we will be voting for."

It was made clear at the meeting that all this needed to be defined, which was a good reason not to have the referendum now. I am prepared to accept the principle that the Scottish economy should be driven by Scottish needs, identified by those in Scotland, people and parliament, rather than as an offshoot of Westminster's focus on SE England as its whole approach to the UK economy.

One thing that Nicola would not be drawn on was whether we should aim for Large government like Sweden or small government like Eire. That and many other matters of detail need to be addressed before the referendum.

The big question is whether Scotland would prosper if its government took decisions only on what is best for Scotland, not how Scotland should be accommodated in what is best for SE England. It seems straightforward to me, whilst agreeing with you that we also need to determine just how we can best achieve the desired solution - a Scottish economy.
22

Doh,

30/05/2008 09:46:53
#9 Colin,

That is the beauty of edited reports.

I was at the debate - he actually prefaced his remark by saying that up until Wendy Alexander's statement he didnt think that parties demanded referendums for policies they were oppossed to.

They have also missed out some of the rambling incoherent contributions made from some loonies in the audience.
23

CowalDude,

Alba 30/05/2008 09:50:19
The key question in all of this debate is: Post Empire and in the context of the new union - Europe- what is Westminster for?
In the business world, when conditions change you change you organisational arrangements, maximise you best brands -Scotland - and slash deadwood overheads - viz. Whitehall and the members club known as Westminster.

I have not yet heard one sensible,reasoned argument for continuing with this unnecessary, expensive, turgid and wasteful layer of bureaucracy.

The resources released to each of the nations on the island would be considerable and we can then cooperate as required within the new and much more appropriate 21st century union in Europe.
24

Jay Kay,

30/05/2008 09:52:42
We the people of Scotland want to take back our country and rule ourselves, not be ruled by Westmonster and the corruption that stems from Europe and a future president B'liar.

If countries like Iceland and Switzerland can govern themselves succesfully then why should we at least give it a try.

Why are so many Unionists afraid to give it a go????

Ill tell you why because their masters in London know damn well that we would take back our Oil, our fishing industry, our shipbuilding industry and rebuild our steel industry, a country our size with only 6 million population and lots of natural beauty, I say we begin by building a huge hadrians wall with machine gun turrets and barbed wire to keep that lot in westmonster out as no doubt most of them have second homes here which get used for two weeks each year.

While Im at it lets see the greedy pigs expenses printed in the hootsmon? Ive tried looking for them online with no success, anybody got any links???, we could print them out each year and hang them from the wall for all to see.

25

Scotland to prosper...,

30/05/2008 09:53:18
#23

Wise up, the current situation is hardly going to improve things is it?

I'd rather put the future of my country in the hands of a Parliament residing in the very nation it governs rather than being dictated to from a foreign government.

You say Salmond is poor at delivering on manifesto pledges:

- A reduction in prescription charges to £5, moving towards full abolition by 2011.
- A Council Tax freeze for 2008/09, benefiting householders across Scotland.
- An end of the £2,289 graduate endowment, benefiting students who graduated last year, and students currently in the system.
- A Small Business Bonus Scheme, benefiting 150,000 small businesses in Scotland.
- Free personal and nursing care payments to older people in care homes rising in line with inflation, benefiting more than 9,000 people.

Maybe I’m missing something but these policies ALREADY DELIVERED do seem to address the issues currently afflicting Scotland.

Would someone care to present a similar list detailing what Westminster has to address these issues? Needle and haystack come to mind…

26

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 30/05/2008 09:57:10
23

The proposal is called Indepedence what planet have you been spending your holidays on
27

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 30/05/2008 10:22:12
Correction: we, the people of Scotland do not all want independence. 15% only at last election.

Question: what if Shetland votes to break away fromn this union with Scotland; and takes its oil with it?
28

Rational cynic,

Edinburgh 30/05/2008 10:47:15
I attended the debate, and this report is a fair reflection of some of what was said. I was disappointed that some key issues were not addressed in any detail e.g.

What does independence mean? For example, would the Scottish Parliament have control over:
taxation? defense? energy policy? broadcasting? foreign policy? what else?

Presumably Scotland would have to pay for the machinery to implement these services and others, independently of the rest of the UK. What would that cost? Are we willing to pay that cost? Would that take money away from existing services paid for by the Scottish Government?

In general, what is likely to be the economic impact on Scotland of independence? Lots of people talk up the benefits of e.g. gaining control of revenues from Scottish oil, but what are the downsides? What is the risk that a newly independent, left of centre Scottish Government will bring in higher taxation and see big companies move out of Scotland?

My heart says "Of course we want to have control over our own affairs" but my head says "This is going to be expensive, and I'm not convinced this has been thought through well enough".
29

Scotland to prosper...,

30/05/2008 11:16:45
#33

Your not getting this are you? How can Salmond deliver on Westminster issues i.e. delvolved issues?!

You shoot your mouth off about schools closing and services being cut but don't acknowledge that this is only associated with the shambolic Aberdeen council, a council previously run by the Tories and Lib Dem. They managed to screw up their budget so badly, people are going to feel the effects for a long time to come.

Taking into account the first year under an SNP government, it surprises me how some people still do not fully appreciate the positive position Scots now find themselves in.

I notice you have yet to produce a list of delivered manifestos by the Westminster government that have aided Scotland in any way?


30

Scotland to prosper...,

30/05/2008 11:31:14
# 36

Well it won't be long before your putting a cross next to the SNP at the polls.

Westminster have already conceded they could not stand in the way of a referendum that has the majority in favour of Independence, that's been the case for many years.

In terms of what Salmond can deliver, one must be able to put into context what he trying to do and be realistic. Working in a minority government that is limited in its powers can only achieve so much. If Salmond can show he's the man for the job given the conditions he has to work under, anyone who voting against him, certainly does not have Scotlands interests at heart.
31

CowalDude,

30/05/2008 11:40:36
Rational Cynic: I too attended the event ...anoraks both!...and felt it generally worthwhile. But I also agree that we need a rational examination of the issues and proinciples..not just of "independence" but also of what that actually means, what real added value there is any longer in the British State [not the UK...union of crowns...largely irrelevant in my view and may as well keep for Head of State requirements]
Also I think we must be aware that the elephant in the south is breaking through its slumber...about time too.
Where I might take issue with you is on the "cynic" bit...for example you say:
"What is the risk that a newly independent, left of centre Scottish Government will bring in higher taxation and see big companies move out of Scotland?"

There are lots of assumptions in there, but to make it work we need to maximise our wealth as a territory and be attractive as a place to do business; however, for me that does not lie inconsistently with the need for a compassionate society...we all have grannies; we all get ill.

yes, we must have a rational debate on all sorts of issues...long overdue and this need a timescale of at least 12 to 18 months in my view.
32

Merouane,

Edinburgh 30/05/2008 11:47:38
#36. The issue in Edinburgh is not about the council tax freeze, it's about the gross incompetance of the council. The council tax has been increased hugely over the last few years... and what have we got to show for it? Even if they'd raised CT another 10% (would you have been happy about that?) they would still be short of cash.
33

cataibh,

Bo'ness 30/05/2008 11:54:08
#7 It is not the 'English parliment' who want to keep the Scots it is the UNIONIST lot.
Without the union the tory party is Scotland would go into oblivion, the labour party would no longer be a political force in England and the Lib Dems would have to go looking for a crumb from the master's table
34

cataibh,

Bo'ness 30/05/2008 11:54:09
#7 It is not the 'English parliment' who want to keep the Scots it is the UNIONIST lot.
Without the union the tory party is Scotland would go into oblivion, the labour party would no longer be a political force in England and the Lib Dems would have to go looking for a crumb from the master's table
35

Ned,

A unionist from morningside 30/05/2008 12:03:52
I say this as a good working class Scot. I would be happy to keep the system we have because it works. This island is too small to be broken up into selfish nation states. I dont think people are really thinking this important issue right through . As British we have all enjoyed a good stable society since 1707. It hasnt been perfect but tell me of one country in the world where it is always perfect( apart from Cuba ).
Please dont think I am not being a true Scot not wanting independence.
36

Merouane,

Edinburgh 30/05/2008 12:16:41
#44. How big does an island have to be before it is "unselfish" to break it up? Personally I think Britain (or the British Isles) are too big to be governed centrally and need to be broken up.
37

Ned,

Morningside 30/05/2008 12:28:48
#45.
Running a country is a complex and difficult thing . Breaking up the British Isles will lead to a lot of problems .Defence , industry, tax laws , jurisprudence, etc.
Look I am no expert on anything but my instinct tells me this independence issue isnt a questions of Breaveheart idealism against the nasty English.
The world is not an easy place to live in. Lets not make it any harder.
38

Rational cynic,

Edinburgh 30/05/2008 12:29:02
#38 CowalDude

I think we are in general agreement - much more discussion is needed about the nuts and bolts of "independence" - what it means, how it would work, what it would cost, the pros and cons, etc.

I must say I'm a bit put off by the postings of some commentators on The Scotsman's site - the knee jerk "we hate Westminster because they treat us badly" type of comments. We need to be more grown up about this and talk through the various options.

I appreciated the sentiments from the panel along the lines of "Independence? There's no such thing as complete independence. We live in an interconnected world. We'll always be affected by our neighbours, near and far. We should consider other options as well as the status quo and 'independence' - more devolved powers, a federal solution, and so on".
39

lulach mac gille coemgain,

30/05/2008 12:43:49
Encouraging to continually witness the comment boards weighted in preference for independence - this must be some kind of statistic in itself - or should we no’ believe oor een ?
40

Merouane,

Edinburgh 30/05/2008 13:08:58
#46. Sure, running a country is a difficult task. It's one that those doing the running need to be completely focussed on. That's why I think Scotland loses out because I don't think the UK is focussed on what's good for Scotland at all. We're an afterthought.

So I agree, it's not an issue of "Braveheart idealism against the nasty English", it's about a good model of government.
41

Merouane,

Edinburgh 30/05/2008 13:11:37
#43. I think we actually have the Lib Dems to thank for the biggest improvement in local government... PR. It has shaken up so many councils. I think the SNP ending of ringfencing is also a good thing. But there seems to be something more fundamentally wrong in local government although I don't know what the solution is, or whether the SNP have any more plans to tackle it.
42

John S,

30/05/2008 13:27:47
MC: We are stronger being represented as part of the UK in the European Union than we would be alone.
Wrong - An independent Scotland as part of the EU would have 12-14 members of the EU parliament at present we have 7 being reduced to 6 in 2009 plus join the other twenty-seven full members of the EU.
MC: But I don't see why we should wait for a referendum.
Wrong: A UK general election must be held on or before the 3 June 2010 so wait until after that event then hold the probable referendum.
MC: Polls show that while the SNP is quite popular with some people,independence is less popular than staying in the United Kingdom.
Wrong:TNS System Three March 2008. For independence:- I agree: 41% - I do not agree: 40%, I suppose 41% is quite popular with some people wanting independance ?
MC: It should be, 'Do you want to stay in the UK? Yes or no.
Wrong:It should be,Do you want to leave the UK ? Yes or No
MC: The question is whether it is better off in the UK or not I happen to believe it is and I think most people agree with me.
Wrong: Would most people disagree with a research Briefing Paper published by the Adam Smith Institute, the free market economic think tank.The Scottish economy could enjoy record growth if Scotland became independent, leaving the average Scot many thousands of pounds better off each year. April 27, 2007
MC: I have long argued that the Scottish Parliament should have much greater financial powers.Correct.
43

bluepict,

union falls 30/05/2008 13:54:07
I see scotland's "Oil capital" Aberdeen is in financial crisis, yet all of the oil is flowing straight down to England?????????????
If the people of Scotland can't see why Independence is well overdue, then there's no hope!
The oil is just one example!
44

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 30/05/2008 14:16:45
It wassnae me, #53.

Chink in the armour? Started negociations on the oil post Independence already? I think this means that you have already accepted the premis that it IS indeed Scotland's oil.

I'm sure we will be able to be fairly generous but not totally naive come the negociations. Maybe stepped reductions 20% per year?? Of course, given the fantastically successful English ecconomy, diverse and so MUCH more powerful that our puny wee ecconomy here in Scotland that they surely would not notice it's passing. Or was that bit just another fib?

Finally, after Independence I have no idea what the remnant part of the former UK will be calling itself.
45

ThomasP,

Scotland, Aberdeen 30/05/2008 15:33:08
55 It wassnae me

England could not claim the oil.

They will have to obay EU and UN Laws/Rules and allow Scottish Freedom and we could use our resources.

That is why they are against Scottish Independence because there is no way to get our oil afterwards
46

CowalDude,

Alba 30/05/2008 17:01:59
# 47 Rational cynic: a couple of further points in response [and yes I think we are in general agreement so far]

First, I believe that the discussion of the issue will grow and that much of that discussion will be of a thoughtful nature though inevitably driven by individual passions and senses of identity; no matter how rational we try to be, some of us more than others that is, we are never fully “objective”, and while a point of view may become clouded, is not invalidated by being argued passionately.
I believe that anti Westminster ranting is not helpful, no matter how tempting that may be, and, after all, many Scots have had their hands in that particular till!
Also there are a number of forums out there where rational debate can take place… The National Conversation, the Calman Commission perhaps, The Independence Convention {cross and non-party} as well as additional media events. Perhaps they should coalesce!

Second, I am not convinced that this need be a divisive issue as the Scotsman states; I think I can safely assert that a majority on these islands would agree that the current arrangements are not, to use an old 1970’s quality management phrase, “fit for purpose”, and that Labour’s devolution enactments have destabilized the whole shooting match. However, there can be little doubt that the highly centralized, ex-empire state…effectively a political black-hole…needs massive revision, not least in the treatment of England and its internal political arrangements and in the mind-set of the bureaucrats who work for it.

Third, I agree that “There's no such thing as complete independence” and “We live in an interconnected world”. Even the USA and China are dependent and Burma is not a great example of going it alone, although I can’t see Alex Salmond in a general’s uniform somehow! In a sense, all the changes since 1945 and interdependency are actually the precise reason as to why we should question the need to continue with the British State and
47

CowalDude,

30/05/2008 17:04:39
... British State and its massive cost and even metro-parochialism. Had the UK politicians had the foresight to consider all this in the 1950s, and introduce a form of post-empire federalism, then we might not be discussing this. However, politicians rarely give up power willingly.
48

ThomasP,

Scotland, Aberdeen 30/05/2008 17:35:58
57 It wassnae me

UN Laws/Rules state that if a country or part of a country votes in majority for a split it must be honoured.

And what is Britain going to do?

Use the troops to ensure the Oil is in their grips?

Do not forget that Britain has an image to keep and the soldiers in the military are Scottish aswell as English, Irish etc

I'd like to see Britain deny that the oil is not in Scottish Waters.
49

Jim P,

Netherlands 30/05/2008 17:41:16
Hello,
I'm back as Jim P as the other me got barred for bad behaviour.
Anyone else got this treatment.
D'ye get unlocked eventually?
.j.
50

Lauwrie,

30/05/2008 18:35:45
This topic "what do we mean by independence?" is worth exploring. It is the converse of "what do we mean by Union ?" the whole definition of which was not thrashed out either in Scotland or in England prior to 1707 - despite Union being an old (ie over 120 years old) notion and for many, an objective.

It seems to have been assumed by most of the Scottish unionists and nearly the entirety of politically aware Scotland,ie well beyond the electoral class of about 4000 people+ the aristocracy, of the years before to 1707 that union would be of the federal variety ie Scotland would retain her parliament and other institutions.
It was assumed Union would refer to a British free trade zone and a taxation zone . There would also be a pan British defence pact with united forces.
The implication was that there would in some way be a British representative body though the details of this were never eludidated.
( this is not to discount the minority but powerful Scottish thrust for a full incorporating British Union which is what happened in the event)

It should be borne in mind that Union was always a more popular idea and had much longer provenance in Scotland than in England. English ideas of Union remained ill expressed and very ill defined until and indeed well after 1707 perhaps because there was no urgency to the situation.
The notion of federalism, not very well explored in Scotland, was even less explored in England. Since there was no English historical precedence to it, it never really got off the ground in England until right at the end of 1706/ early 1707 when it was easily run over by the government machine.
What actually happened was that the small but well organised and extremely powerful emerging British class in both countries traded on this haziness to bashed through a full "incorporating" union. It was bounced onto both countries . Some English viewed this as an incorporation into the English parliament. Lots of Scots did.
In fa
51

Ard Righ,

The Rock Of Edinburgh 30/05/2008 18:49:49
I've been enjoying Margo MacDonald's forthright comments.
52

frank mcbride,

lusitania 30/05/2008 19:29:18
I'm amazed at the equanimity of our Union supporters on this thread.

Having lost the argument, vis a vis the Union, they are, now, to a wo/man advocating Federalism. Strangely! this, to me and most sentient beings, is still the Union.

What does Independence mean? has been asked. Is this a serious question? But, I'll answer it in a very simple way, for those with little, or no political knowledge.
It is Scotland having control over its own governance; like the UK has now, or even more so.

The current onslaught by Unionist posters is just a variant of the "sky will fall in" used during the 2007 Election.
53

Callum MacPherson,

Edinburgh 30/05/2008 21:02:11
I would really love to see this paper doing a good job. It SHOULD be at the heart of the Scottish media. However the reporting of Wednesday's debate is an absolute disgrace. The bias shown towards the old Unionist parties is deeply disturbing and, quite frankly, offensive.

Please, please Scotsman, don't let Scotland down.

54

frank mcbride,

lusitania 30/05/2008 21:10:31
#70, AM2.

Realisation dawns at last. I hope you'll now desist from your standard repetition of............ well, your standard repetition.
55

,

30/05/2008 21:56:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
56

,

30/05/2008 22:01:06
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
57

John PM,

Edinburgh 31/05/2008 00:18:21
Independence thrashed the unionists in the debate, though the Scotsman obviously thinks by printing a partial account they can pretend otherwise.

Why no mention of the audience member who said it was up to the SNP members not Nicola Sturgeon what the future direction of the party would be?

Why ignore the man at the front who pointed out the glaringly obvious that we are outvoted 10-1 within the union? He actually underestimated the amounts of English MP's but his point was sound.

The Lib Dems could not explain why they had betrayed the Claim of Right, while Labour's support of a referendum was shown as a cynical con trick. IE vote now before there is a proper discussion and before the Tories get in, not because it's good for Scotland but because if the SNP remain popular you might have the confidence to vote to end the union!

The Lib Dems don't want to give the people a choice, how can they possibly reconcile that with being a genuinely democratic (or Scottish?) party?

Murdo Fraser didn't seem to like the idea of a left wing Scotland but he made no coherent argument against independence and every person on the panel admitted Scotland was entirely economically capable of running her own affairs.

And yet on this board as usual we have the usual susapects telling the usual ecobnomic lies.

Independence isn't about money, it's about democracy and it's about self respect. The unionists can delay and lie about our potential prospects but it will come eventually.

The absence of any compelling argument for the union was extremely telling. Labour and Lib Dems have joined the Tories on the unpopular Union Jack bench and no-one is shouting for their team to win.
58

Brian Hill,

Edinburgh 31/05/2008 12:36:42
All this detailed talk about the ins and outs of Independence is being completely superceded by the rising price of Oil.

Bearing in mind the reason for rising oil prices....Chinese and Indian industrialisation....is going to intensify rather than diminish, we can expect Oil prices to rise further. Worse case scenario would be to level out between $100 and $110 a barrel.

Question: Will the Scots put up with rising food and fuel prices despite being the 12th biggest Oil producer in the world, with oil at over $100 a barrel?

Answer:
59

,

31/05/2008 20:56:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
60

Castaway,

01/06/2008 00:35:27
The Labour Party received of 35.2% the vote - UK GE May 2005
Which means 64.8% of those who voted in the May 2005 UK General Election did not want a Labour lead Government.
61

rai,

glasgow 06/06/2008 08:14:51
Independance will happen sooner or later it's just a question of time, labour will lose the next election, that's a given and the Torys will win, also a given, people in ordinary working class Scotland will see exactly this and it's this, that will kill the union with England Gordon Brown is the S.N.Ps dream come true.
62

Hugo of Garven,

11/08/2008 08:14:12
"A YEAR ON FROM THE SNP VICTORY, ARE WE ANY NEARER TO INDEPENDENCE?"

I would say very definitely YES because the SNP have shown themselves to be surprisingly competent in government; they are no longer an unknown quantity.

We are nearer but it is not a foregone conclusion.

 

Comment on this Story

 

In order to post comments you must Register or Sign In

 
 
 
  

 
 


Sister Newspapers: