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First Scotsman Debate sees sparks fly on independence



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Published Date: 29 May 2008
NICOLA Sturgeon, the deputy First Minister, last night insisted the SNP had not "chickened out" of holding an immediate referendum on independence when recently challenged by Wendy Alexander.
She insisted the party would win a vote in the "once in a generation" poll, if it were put to the Scottish people today.

However, she said Nationalists would prefer to build a solid record in government before holding a vote.

Ms Sturgeon was part of a panel discussing independence in the first of a series of Scotsman Debates to held across the country in the coming weeks.

She was joined by Professor Tom Devine, the historian; Malcolm Chisholm, Labour's constitutional spokesman at Holyrood; Murdo Fraser, the Scottish Tories' deputy leader; Patrick Harvie, the Green MSP; Margo MacDonald, the independent MSP; and Nicol Stephen, the Scottish Liberal Democrats' leader.

The debate, held at Edinburgh University's George Square lecture theatre, was chaired by Michael Crow, STV's political correspondent and presenter of Politics Now.

During the discussion, panel members were asked by an audience member if they thought a referendum would be won if it were held now. "My simple question is why do we delay? Why do we wait two years to come to a decision?" he asked.

Asked by Mr Crow if she had "chickened out" of a quick referendum when Ms Alexander challenged the SNP to "bring it on," Ms Sturgeon retorted: "If we changed our position every time Wendy Alexander changed hers, we would all be in a mess." She insisted voters needed time to see how well the SNP operated in government before they decided on independence.

But she added: "We could win a referendum now."

Ms Sturgeon's views were dismissed by Mr Chisholm who insisted the issue of independence stood alone and "does not depend on the popularity of a particular party".

Later, Ms Sturgeon was asked to comment on the view expressed by Alex Salmond, the First Minister, that a referendum would be "a once in a generation" question.

Mr Crow asked if failure to win a referendum on independence would mean the SNP should drop it from their manifesto.

She replied: "I don't think we would lose the referendum. The First Minister was expressing a personal view. My personal view is a referendum is a once-in-a-generation event."

Mr Stephen reiterated his view that there should not be a referendum unless there was a majority in Holyrood for independence.

A full account of the debate will be published in tomorrow's Scotsman.

WHAT NEXT?

ON Monday, at Aberdeen's Town House, a panel including Martin Ford, who originally rejected the controversial Trump golf resort plan with a casting vote, will discuss: Does the Trump saga show Scotland has failed to balance its economic and environmental interests?

E-mail scotsmandebates@scotsman.com or write to David Lee, ScotsmanDebates, The Scotsman, 108 Holyrood Road, Edinburgh, EH8 8AS for tickets. Please state how many you want (maximum two per applicant) and for which debate(s).

The full article contains 504 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

,

29/05/2008 00:18:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
2

Guga II,

Rockall 29/05/2008 00:34:57
The Mouth of the South should tell her masters in Westminster that we want a general election, and that they should "bring it on". After all, it's not as if Maggie Broon has got any form of endorsement from the electorate for either his government or himself.

She might also tell her masters in Westminster to "bring it on" as regards a referendum on the latest EU treaty he has foisted on the public.

Does The Mouth of the South know the meaning of the word hypocrisy? She should, as the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party practice it all the time.

3

AJ Fife,

29/05/2008 00:36:46
What on earth was wrong with #1 Mr Scotsman???????

How about e-mailing me an explanation!
4

Conan the Librarian™,

29/05/2008 00:37:21
Why was comment 1 removed?

Scotsman censorbot check;

Onionist, Sh!tting, themselves.
5

AJ Fife,

29/05/2008 00:39:18
#4,

Something stinks here! It must've been the "Onionist" jibe! :)
6

Conan the Librarian™,

29/05/2008 00:40:40
3
Indeed AJ

Perhaps the Scotsman IT team should hold out for walnuts?
7

,

29/05/2008 00:48:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
8

frank mcbride,

lusitania 29/05/2008 00:49:09
If NuLabour is so desparate for a Referendum, they will propose one, with a question framed within the Devolution settlement, before the SP.

If they are only "grandstanding", they won't.

Who's taking bets?

Does NuLabour really think that the Scottish Electorate is stupid?
9

Hmm ...,

29/05/2008 00:50:13
... excellent debate on a format similar to TV's Question Time, very ably chaired by Michael Crow who gave us very entertaining but tongue in cheek introductions of the participants. The stars were undoubtedly Prof. Tom Devine, who successfully plugged his latest book "Scotland and the Union", and Margo MacDonald who presented her argument in her inimitable manner but both were upstaged by a member of the audience who asked that the Scotsman's editorial policy should reflect the composition of the panel in the debate. This suggestion was particularly well received by the audience!

Nicola Sturgeon represented the SNP's views very ably - but then we expect no less of her, so perhaps she doesn't get well-deserved credit. Poor Malcolm Chisolm had a sorry row to plough, bound as he was by Labour's recent history and its present predicament and Nicol Stephen and Murdo Fraser made up numbers.

If the subsequent debates maintain this standard, The Scotsman has served Scotland very well indeed!
10

Jimmy the Pie,

29/05/2008 00:51:38
Ask Comrade Broon about chickens.

Remember last October?

The election that never was!

Bring it on Comrade!!
11

Hmm ...,

29/05/2008 00:54:51
... oh, and Patrick Harvie came across better than I expected, except when he couldn't resist saying that he wanted independence from oil.

So do we all, Patrick - but only when we have a better alternative!

And preferably found in unlimited amounts only in Scotland!
12

truthsleuth,

29/05/2008 00:57:28
#2 Guga II

As I see it the SNP are always shouting their mouths off about Independance but when given the chance they crawl back down their holes and raise the saltire with a yellow cross.

They do not have the courage of their own convictions and the canny Scots will recognise them for what they are Afeart.
13

Conan the Librarian™,

29/05/2008 00:58:43
Hmm and Jimmy the Pie; I am coming to the conclusion that "Bury Free Press" now rules.
14

Nikostratos,

29/05/2008 01:01:40
cluck..cluck..cluck...cluck snp chick chick chicken........come then go for it yellow the lot of ya especially Guga..
15

Conan the Librarian™,

29/05/2008 01:04:22
14
Jeez Niko, does your carer ken you are up this late?
16

Scottish Politics,

29/05/2008 01:04:50
What kind of a headline is "SNP 'has not chickened out over vote on independence'"? That is plainly a ridiculous assessment of what was an excellent debate on independence. It seems that the member of the audience was indeed correct to raise the point about the Scotsman editorial policy.

If that was the only message taken from the debate by the so-called journalists at the Scotsman it is no wonder circulation is going through the floor.
17

Jimmy the Pie,

29/05/2008 01:06:51
12 truthsleuth,

Might be an idea to learn how to spell independence, before you start shouting about it!

Buffoon
18

Conan the Librarian™,

29/05/2008 01:11:15
17
Seriously Jimmy; google "Bury free Press."
19

frank mcbride,

lusitania 29/05/2008 01:16:13
#14, Nikostratus & #12, truthsleuth.

Why doesn't NuLabour bring the Referendum forward.

I know that under SG standing orders they can't on their own but, they could GUARANTEE the SNP a majority for an immediate Referendum.

Is NuLab genuine, or are they just "grandstanding"?

Anyone taking bets?
20

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 29/05/2008 01:18:03
12 Untruthsleuth

Convictions are what most parties print on their manifesto and even a White Paper. Read it and you'll see the SNP have a conviction for a referendum in 2010. Who knows what Wendy's position will be then. Truly a non-conviction politician.

And 14 Niko

Another startlingly knowledgeable and substantive post. Just what we expect from you.
21

Conan the Librarian™,

29/05/2008 01:19:21
Good Evening Frank.
Was ciderman annoying you earlier?
22

BrianHill,

Edinburgh 29/05/2008 01:24:02
Yes it was a good evening with a predominantly nationalist audience I would say.

One audience member asked if anyone on the panel didn't think Scotland could run its own affairs. Naturally everyone said it could but the Unionists claimed we had to look at the best form of Government for Scotland and that was within the Union.

Oh really??

Tom Devine, Margo and Nicola were the undoubted stars and Michael Crow made an excellent chairman.....apart from not picking me to ask a question of course.....and me wi the good shirt 'n tie oan and au'hing, hair combed, the lot!!



23

Conan the Librarian™,

29/05/2008 01:26:10
22
Combed hair...
24

frank mcbride,

lusitania 29/05/2008 01:34:20
#21, Conan.

Good evening, Conan.

Just a bit, but I suppose I should make allowance for the scumpy. Prefer the amber nectar, myself.

Anyway, is he still rambling??????????????
25

subrosa,

29/05/2008 01:35:35
# 23

Sounds like his Sunday best Conan :)
26

frank mcbride,

lusitania 29/05/2008 01:39:34
Has anyone else noticed?

The Scotsman is getting like the "Herald". Only, on the Scotsman, comments are pay-per-view.

Like, on the Herald boards, this comment has been recorded for posterity.
27

Jimmy the Pie,

29/05/2008 01:39:50
From today's Guardian.

Crisis could bankrupt Labour leaders

Party officials could become liable for millions of pounds worth of debt unless new donors can be found

Just watch the rats flee the stricken ship!!

28

Jimmy the Pie,

29/05/2008 01:41:54
Here's the link to the above story

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/may/29/labour
29

Conan the Librarian™,

29/05/2008 01:45:38
24
Frank I tend to ignore his spoutings:-)
But sometimes you JUST have to respond.

25
subrosa
LOL
30

Nikostratos,

29/05/2008 01:53:42
#19 frankie if he aint in bed

£100 on the nose any takers............

"She (nicky)insisted the party would win a vote in the "once in a generation" poll, if it were put to the Scottish people today"

what dont have a referendum because we will win it.......Is she having a laugh
31

frank mcbride,

29/05/2008 02:14:10
#30, Nikita.

I'll take that bet. NuLab will never, NEVER, guarantee the SNP a majority on a Referendum Bill.

You don't seem to be able to take on board, Niko, that the SNP tries to fulfil its Manifesto commitment, even in minority.
2010 is the Manifesto date for a Referendum, but if NuLab want to bring this forward, I'm sure the SG would be happy to assist.

Is NuLab grandstanding? Yes or YES.

Anyway Niko, your bet is accepted. I'll meet you in (The Red Lion) The Settle Inn in Stirling; let's say 3/9/2008 - 3mths. is long enough for NuLab to get its act together. Don't you agree?
32

,

29/05/2008 04:22:47
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
33

An Beal Bacht,

29/05/2008 04:49:42
Hmm at 9 - good post

Conan at 18 - googled - scary!!!

Brian at 22 - ye mean ye goat dressed up fur nuthin?

Frank at 26 - I've noticed.

Jimmy at 28 - good link - maybe he was up here looking for donations?

Cybernats everywhere - it's startin!

34

donald,

glasgow 29/05/2008 06:03:38
Labour could hold a referendum from the English Parliament - if it really, really wants.
35

Royster,

29/05/2008 06:07:16
#34. What English parliament?
36

Sod off labour!,

edinburgh 29/05/2008 06:34:23
Sorry I missed the fun...things are definitely changing here ( Bob Dylan) !!!Did they mention council tax at all? Did anyone discuss the complexities of local income tax? Top businessmen deserting the place? or are they all going to stay and enjoy the benefits of all this expensive oil? keep me posted...Will different tribes be at each other's throats? Interesting times !
37

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 29/05/2008 06:42:38
I seem to remember that, not so long ago, all of you nationalists were praising The Herald. How times change.
38

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 29/05/2008 06:44:18
The vast majority of Scots are too canny to vote for independence. They have not been taken in by SNP spin or the SNP supporting media.
39

glassbenmhor,

29/05/2008 06:53:17
Come on you Unionistas,

Tell us all why you think, a member of the public in Scotland should put up with oil refined from Scottish waters being offered to him with the highest prices in the western world by the Westminster Government,

go on enlighten us?
40

glassbenmhor,

29/05/2008 06:56:06
300 years of----aye----- history
41

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 29/05/2008 07:20:37
Back to topic:- did any one mention the elephant in the room?

No.

Why is intelligent discussion on the third and best option, a United States of a Federated Great Britain, USGB, being prevented?

Salmond to become Governor of the State of Alba.
42

bully wee alba,

Edinburgh 29/05/2008 07:25:50
#38

“Lance Boil”?

“canny Scots”?

“SNP supporting media”?


At least you are making an attempt at humour, which at this time of the day is commendable
43

SouthernSkye,

Bonnie Bonn 29/05/2008 07:26:31
#18 Conan
As well as Bury Free Press don't forget the illustrious organ known as the.....
http://www.stornowaygazette.co.uk
44

kimba,

29/05/2008 07:36:56
England will be fine with or without Scotland. Some of us just don't have the heart to sell Scotland out to Brussels. That job falls upon the fakes who used bigotry to gain support.
45

,

29/05/2008 07:54:03
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
46

morris,

edinburgh 29/05/2008 08:01:54
44
England and Wales and Northern Ireland will be what remains when Scotland leaves .It will be known as whatever it decides to be called.What that will be is a good question!
You will have what is rightfully yours and fare accordingly. No one disputes this.Generally speaking this should be around 90% of everything the UK contained.
Some of us just dont have the heart to sell Scotland out to Brussels?What are you driveling about?

Scotland will remain a member of the EU as will the remainder of the former United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in whatever shape or form it takes.(we are still united as far as 1603 goes with only 1707 changing as I understand this).We will all still be in the EU and no customs barriers were ever envisaged anyway ,much along the lines of Sweden and Norway who continue to enjoy a very open border since Norway became indpependent so we can also do this.
Scotland will be offered terms of membership which she will probably accept,(but I presume this of course),and that remains to be seen.The same of course applies to the other part which includes England of course,but again I expect acceptance to be the majority held view.
Very little will change in fact.
I dont knoiw where you get your information from but I would take it back if I were you!
47

Bigwull,

edinburgh 29/05/2008 08:05:00
We need to get away from Engerlund before they vote Tory, or we'll be decimated again!! Guaranteed
48

Royster,

29/05/2008 08:08:11
#39. Oil revenue is just a small part of the overall economy. In return you get an NHS, armed forces, roads, schools, police force etc etc. Unlike many countires, including a few in Europe, corruption is quite rare. The British state works and has been a model for others. In my view, it's main fault is that people are molly-coddled too much but others think differently. A small state along the lines of Iceland or Ireland cannot compete and has to offer substantial tax reductions (ie less money for the general population) to attract business. Like all businesses, they want a good location with plenty of opportunities which is why people are flocking to China at the moment. They have to be bribed to go to Iceland and Ireland. Only a fool would swap revenue from a single commodity with that from a large, developed and varied economy.
49

Royster,

29/05/2008 08:09:35
#47. Stagecoach and Souter did quite nicely out of the Tories.
50

morris,

edinburgh 29/05/2008 08:11:48
47

Congratulations Bigwull!
You've got it in one.Thats precisely what will happen thanks to the New Labour voting morons.
The big problem most Labour voters have is they need to be run over before they realise a bus is coming.
51

morris,

edinburgh 29/05/2008 08:20:30
49
Whilst that is true, the point is surely that post independence Brian Souter would like everybody else (including you), be free to vote for whoever he likes.Thats democracy.
Independence can only happen if the Scots support it Thats also democracy.

I fail to see what relevance this has to anything to be honest.Brian Souter donated money to the SNP.Thats also his democratic choice to make.


The Labour Party have accepted thousands of donations some of which are dodgy /known to be illegal.
What this has to do with the SNP observing the rules I fail to comprehend.Maybe you object to funding of political parties who disagree with you?

Thats not even sensible never mind democratic!
52

westcider,

Isle of Lewis 29/05/2008 08:32:14
Yes, What we all should make clear to the non thinking around us is exactly what will change and what will remain the same. The stratagem from Wendy is to panic people into a quick vote whereas the government would prefer to show exactly how things would be better for everyone. The argument must be developed past the name calling and on to the great benefits of closer faster more relevant government with an emphasis on Scotlands many assets and how they should be developed for the good of the country. We all have our own part to play in this to move the nation forward.
53

Alan Reid,

NZ 29/05/2008 08:41:15
48 Royster #39. “Oil revenue is just a small part of the overall economy. In return you get an NHS, armed forces, roads, schools, police force etc etc. Unlike many countires, including a few in Europe, corruption is quite rare. The British state works and has been a model for others. In my view, it's main fault is that people are molly-coddled too much but others think differently. A small state along the lines of Iceland or Ireland cannot compete and has to offer substantial tax reductions (ie less money for the general population) to attract business. Like all businesses, they want a good location with plenty of opportunities which is why people are flocking to China at the moment. They have to be bribed to go to Iceland and Ireland. Only a fool would swap revenue from a single commodity with that from a large, developed and varied economy"

Royster:
People are doing deals with China because:
1: cheap labour, the work force as much as maybe 600 million? On what, $3 a day?
2 No Unions,
3: no environmental laws (or very little)
And a few more


“Only a fool would swap revenue from a single commodity with that from a large, developed and varied economy”

Also your right, oil is just a small part of the Scottish economy. We have whisky, water, fishing (whats left of it) textiles (whats left of it) Banking, tourism, and more and we only have 8.6% of the total UK population.

“Unlike many countires, including a few in Europe, corruption is quite rare. The British state works and has been a model”
Your joking right? How did Roysth V Devenport in 91 look to you?
What about the Iraq invasion? Is that not corrupt?

“A small state along the lines of Iceland or Ireland cannot compete and has to offer substantial tax reductions (ie less money for the general population) to attract business”
Point is the Scottish Government is NOT ALLOWED to change it’s corporate tax rate, so on that point we can never compete on a fair level playing field, with the r
54

The Tin Man,

Over the Rainbow 29/05/2008 08:41:54
#51 morris

Brian Soutar is perfectly free to bung the SNP £500,000 and watch the SNP's policy of bus re-regulation magically disappear.
55

Scotsman in Dublin,

29/05/2008 08:43:52
What a ridiculous notion to say that the SNP have 'chickened out' by not holding a referendum when the leader of another party says they should! The SNP stood for election on a promise of a referendum bill for 2011, if they dont bring that bill forward then people can say they have chickened out, not before. When the time comes we will see who chickens out and who does not.
56

Alan Reid,

NZ 29/05/2008 08:44:55
Cont'
Point is the Scottish Government is NOT ALLOWED to change it’s corporate tax rate, so on that point we can never compete on a fair level playing field, with the rest of the UK.

Sorry mate you’ll have to do better than that, to make me vote for staying in this Union.
57

livilion,

livingston 29/05/2008 08:45:23
Anyone else seen the news about the Labour party's latest financial woes?

Several banks are due to call in loans over the next couple of months and when the party are unable to pay up then Gordy Broon and his executive council will individually all be held responsible and could all be declared bankrupt.
Several key Unions affilliated to the party are reported to be already making moves to distance themselves from any fallout if this should come to pass with senior officials requesting to be granted indemnity.

As MPs are barred from office in the event of being declared bankrupt and Labour would never dare foist another unelected Prime Minister on the country we could be in for a general election sooner than we thought.

Given the stench surrounding previous attempts by Labour to resolve its 'funding crisis' I for one am watching this story for developments, but obviously as you can understand, not in the Scotsman.
58

livilion,

livingston 29/05/2008 08:48:56
Sorry missed out the link:...

Labour cash crisis could bankrupt party leaders

David Hencke, Westminster correspondent The Guardian, Thursday May 29 2008 Article history

>>Senior officials in the Labour party, including Gordon Brown, could become personally liable for millions of pounds in debt unless new donors can be found within weeks,<<

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/may/29/labour
59

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 29/05/2008 08:53:03
The Scots are not taken in by pro SNP reporting. We are far too clever for that.
60

morris,

edinburgh 29/05/2008 08:55:58
39
Oil would only be part of Scotlands economy also,with whisky fishing and a number of smaller industries all playing their part.Silicon Glen manufactures a fair output for a nation of 5 miilion.We are far from being a single commodity nation in Scotland.
Even if we were a banana republic (literally) provided we had enough bananas we could trade them with other nations .The laws of supply and demand certainly apply ,but as long as you have both,what commodity you are dealing in matters progressively less.
You seem to forget that The Rest Of The former UK has somewhere around 10 times as many mouths to feed,with England being so industrialsed that she cannot feed herself and imports food in bulk.As long as she has enough manufactured goods to pay for it (which she does)then it does not matter(apart from wartime).
Whilst diversification certainly plays a part as in flexible is best,its far more important to have enough in total,as a priority,since a balance of payments cannot exist otherwise presumably?
What you say owes far more to scaremongering than sound economic principle.
61

sonofhamish,

edinburgh 29/05/2008 09:01:20
There are SO many other more important and pressing issues confronting Scotland right now. Why this non-sense on independance even gets an airing is beyond me.

When are the SNP and their ilk going to stop being so small minded and backward looking.
62

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 29/05/2008 09:03:23
59

Patrick, I couldn't agree more. We are used to the Tories getting an easy time of it but the press have gone overboard with their pro SNP attitudes.
63

livilion,

livingston 29/05/2008 09:06:22
59 Patrick O'Reilly
Would you mind providing a link to some, I'm afraid that looking for rocking horse droppings and hens' teeth is easier?
64

livilion,

livingston 29/05/2008 09:10:45
60 morris
The UK manufacturing industry's balance of payments has made sorry reading for decades now.
The UK economy is now by a huge margin funded by bookies taking bets on commodity prices in the City of London and Docklands.
65

morris,

edinburgh 29/05/2008 09:13:02
57

There have been a number of suggestions over the years that the creation of UNISON (you will know all about Jim Devine of course)was in fact nothing more than dragging Nalgo (fourth largest and non political and believe or not comprising of a predominately TORY supporting membership) into the Labour Party contributing Unions (through back door amlagamation),and Labours Walworth Road offices in London were being sold if it failed to materialise.Nalgo Cohse and Nupe were free to join forces or go their separate ways when it suited their purpose,and the benefit of a larger Union was not confined to its membership!Labour were the winners here and the real reason for this Unity.Tory Nalgo would never have been a Labour Union any other way.

Labours internal finances have been iffy for many years now,and one has to ask where have the millions which the Trade Unions contributed gone? I see precious liitle to suggest its above board!They are permanently in debt and somebody must have their hands in the cookie jar.There is no other explanation. Or is there?Labour spend money certainly,but on what?
66

Tellen1,

29/05/2008 09:28:30
#2 Guga -

"After all, it's not as if Maggie Broon has got any form of endorsement from the electorate for either his government or himself."

You are right about Gordon Brown not having any endorsement from the electorate to be Prime Minister but you must be confused about the labour government having no endorsement - they won the 2005 general election by a majority and therefore clearly have the endorsement of the electorate to form a government.
67

morris,

Edinburgh 29/05/2008 09:30:55
64

Indeed the management of the UK economy does not compare well to other European nations.It may be one of the largest,its certainly not well managed.
No argument there Livi.

My point really is that because Scotland is a much smaller nation and economy,it is if anything to her advantage in terms of manageability ,I would have thought,and she is not disadvantaged by having limited resources in terms of diversity ,in the same way as having no resources(in terms of quantity) would do ,(which is what is implied by Royster). We are perfectly sound as you are no doubt only too well aware.
I'm not suggesting that the UK has performed well,far from it.I am like you anxious to leave because I know the strength of Scotland's position is sound, and has been for many years now, even before the oil was discovered.
Maybe its just me but you seem to assume I am supporting or implying things which I have not in fact said, nor do I claim?
68

Ananurhing,

29/05/2008 09:31:28
#57 livilion

I notice that the Labour party are exploring the possibility of becoming a 'limited liability company'.
Retrospectively??????????
Surely then when they liquidate, they would have to relaunch under another name.
Or maybe just not bother.
Another reason for Scottish Labour to distance itself from London Labour.
69

livilion,

livingston 29/05/2008 09:34:57
68 Ananurhing
There's an idea, I take it New Labour is a non-runner so how about the conservative and unionist party, to allow for modern thinking within the socialist movement in London?
70

Doh,

29/05/2008 09:34:57

I went along.
The debate was well natured but some god awful questions.

The old boy at the front going on about Culloden was a time waster and the lady at the end cornered the microphone to point out that no women had asked a question and then went on - not to ask a question.
But I think Tory boy deserves man of the match for sheer blind partisanship. Well done son.

Margo was a first class panderer and wondered why Scotland didnt have steel industry any more - presuming it was the fault of the union no doubt. I thought it was due to world wide oversupply causing the most expensive manufacturers to go out of business.

At the end Tom Devine congratulated on her debating point "och yer too intelligent". All in all another day in fantasy land.
71

livilion,

livingston 29/05/2008 09:43:39
66 Tellen1
Good point but Tony Blair and now Gordy Broon secured less of the popular vote in 2005 than Alex Salmond's party in the Holyrood elections last year.
72

morris,

Edinburgh 29/05/2008 09:44:18
66
I think you are both correct if the truth be of any consequence. Blair and Boron were democratically elected in the sense of they finished ahead under a first past the post system,which usually means more people opposed Blair's election than supported it!The same is true therefore of Broon since he has that same dubious mandate.
If an election were held tomorrow Labour would be annihilated and thats pretty well confirmed by all the measures which are available to us.
In fact if the bye election result were repeated(I'm sure it wont be that bad)Labour would be on the wrong end of a nearing 400 seat majority,and finished as a credible party of opposition.I think myself a majority of between 200 and 300 is possible.
The point is the majority is academic when a party slips out of contention.Labour are certainly deep in it,and I don't see them coming out again.The Trade Unions will all be announcing an increase in contributions to bail the party out(or will they).I suspect they may tell Labour to go play with the traffic on the M25.

73

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

29/05/2008 09:44:48
If we are honest one could say that the position of all parties is based on tactics with no real principle.

The truth of the matter is that both the SNP and Labour only want a referendum to take place if they have a good chance of winning. Labour wants a referendum sooner because it reckons (and quite rightly in my opinion) that they are more likely to win a referendum held sooner rather than later. The SNP don't want a referendum now as they know they need time to build support for independence.

The longer that the unionist parties put off a referendum the less likely they are to win. Of course this assumes that the SNP continue to govern popularly - we have all seen how quickly things can change. Salmond has a balancing act to play - he has to govern well but at the same time convince the electorate that he could govern even better with independence.
74

Dooogie,

Highland 29/05/2008 09:48:25
After INDEPENDENCE Scotland will still be part of the united kingdom because we will still have the same monarch and we will still be part of the commonwealth and the EU.
What we will be left with will be Lesser Britain and Greater Scotland.
We will no longer be dragged along with the Union Jack booted diplomacy which led us into the bloody mess we now have in Iraq.
Ma Broon has just done a great deal - for the oil companies- and sold out more of Scotlands oil for a pittance and offered them huge incentives for the privilege.
75

Ananurhing,

29/05/2008 09:54:22
What I find interesting in the debate is we seem to have reached a stage where a case for the union needs to be made, and no one is making it.
Other than the usual patronising trite guff.
" Stronger together", and " the Scottish people don't want independence".
The only progress made by the pro-unionists is at least they've stopped telling Scotland that independence is unviable.
If that's the best they can offer, then not only is it time, it's also inevitable.
76

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

29/05/2008 10:02:18
#75 One could argue that the SNP's position is that the case for independence needs to be made too. If did not then you can bet your bottom dolalr they'd be going for a referendum now. It's not the hardline independent voters that need convinced but the vast majority of the electorate who sitting on the fence over the issue.

What the unionist parties are hoping for is that fear and uncertainty will drive many of those undecideds into their camp. That as a strategy may be fine in the short run but won't work in the long term.

The undecided voters need to be convinced by both sides of the debate - until this happens then they will remain undecided.
77

morris,

edinburgh 29/05/2008 10:08:44
73

Whilst the support of any party for a referendum will indeed consider the likely outcome,and no one would dispute that, and yes the SNP should be in a better position after having been in power(or they have screwed up badly and we are well warned is another possibility to be fair),the position of the SNP is consitent in that they have meade clear what they want when and how.
The Unionists tactics are not to measure support for independece but oppose it as long as this is possible.The referendum has value therfore since we KNOW what the true position is (in theory anyway).

The problem is that anything other than a straight choice between Status Quo and Independence involves an unknown called Devolution MkII and we have no idea what that contains. Its a blank cheque and maybe a bouncing one !
More devolution? Different devolution they mean,with a few minor meaningless concessions coupled to the removal of any opposition to Trident Nuclear Generation and Dumping and anything else which Westmonster wishes to imnpose upon us (A Tory government for a start).

At least with the SNP you know what they are intending.Anybody who belives anything that Nicolarse or Ubendy says deserves what they get.
78

Ananurhing,

29/05/2008 10:19:13
#76 The Fed

I think the fear and negative campaigning is proving to be counter productive for Labour at least. As it was in Crewe and Nantwich. I also think the number of people who are undecided is diminishing rapidly.
As I've said before, I'm struck by the amount of normally apolitical people I know who are not only now pro-independence, but are voicing derision and distrust for Scottish Labour. Wendy in particular seems to inspire this reaction.
79

livilion,

livingston 29/05/2008 10:19:32
70 Doh
>>I thought it was due to world wide oversupply causing the most expensive manufacturers to go out of business.<<

Yes that's what we were told when our own government pulled the plug on British Steel the UK's govt owned national steel industry but it turns out the France, Germany, and Italy, to name just three, today have thriving and expanding steel industries supplying among other things steel for domestic and foreign shipbuilding, vehicle manufacture and railway infrastructure.

Our manufacturing went out the window when UKplc went bust during the 70s was baled out by the IMF and we got lumbered with Thatcher's vendetta against the unions from 1979 onwards.
Just when the money from the North Sea Oil really started coming ashore it was used to pay the dole money for 3million workers Thatcher put out of work in order to emasculate the unions.

I might also mention that Spain still has a thriving fishing industry, but then Spain has identified that fishing is a significant industrial sector to her people unlike the attitude in Whitehall.
80

Tellen1,

29/05/2008 10:23:16
#71 - I'm not sure where you got your statistics that labour secured less of the popular vote in 2005 than the SNP in the 2007 scottish election.

In the 2005 general election labour got 35.3% of the vote whereas the SNP only got 31.9% of the vote in the 2007 scottish election.

#72 - yes you are right, if there was an election tomorrow labour would lose badly but the fact remains that they won the 2005 election and therefore have a mandate to form a government till 2010 if they wish.

Regarding the fact that more people voted against labour than for, yes that is correct - but thats the first-past-the-post system for you - more people also voted against the SNP in 2007 (68% of those who voted) but they still got to form a (minority) government, despite the scottish system being a mix of FPTP and proportional representation.
81

livilion,

livingston 29/05/2008 10:23:52
77 morris
The McCrone made clear the UK govt's attitude to devolution; it is a stalling tactic against Scottish independence until such time as any outstanding resources of use to The Treasury can be milked dry.

Is it only market forces at play that less than a year after Broon became PM he's up here turning up the wick on North Sea Oil production?
82

,

29/05/2008 10:33:49
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
83

,

29/05/2008 10:40:04
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
84

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 29/05/2008 10:40:16
82

Skratch, while I agree that the 2010 referendum will deliver a "no" vote, I am sure that the SNP will win more Holyrood seats in 2011. Therein lies the dilemma for the party: will it then have to move to the left?
85

Mack1,

Carlisle 29/05/2008 10:47:05
I can't see the SNP making its mind up on a referendum any time soon. After that it will be academic as far as us south of the Border are concerned: by then we will have kicked out Labour and the Tories will bring in an English Parliament to resolve the constitutional anomalies resulting from Devolution. That will be the the final nail in the coffin as far as the Union is concerned.
86

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 29/05/2008 10:47:55
84

Robert, as things stand, it couldn't move much further to the right, could it?
87

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 29/05/2008 10:48:52
85

Mack1, the drink must be strong in Carlisle.
88

livilion,

livingston 29/05/2008 10:51:06
#82 Skratch me left bollack

Correct me if I'm wrong but at the Holyrood elections in May last year the case for independence was put on the back burner by the SNP, and rarely if ever mentioned by them, to avoid clouding the issues as constitutionaly there was no possibility of independence even if 100% of those eligible cast their ballot for the SNP.

Considering that until the SNP took power last year their access to media coverage was severely curtailed and downright lies were being left unchallenged (McCrone etc).
It is hardly surprising and entirely understandable that the SNP want time to redress some of the longstanding untruths and propaganda the Scottish electorate have been subject to for many decades but more especially in the era of the devolution debates, too wee, too poor, too thick etc.

A referendum if proposed today would not be enacted until 2009 by which time the case for and against persevering with the Union would be made. We're talking of a difference of twelve months at most, personally I reckon I've waited this long, another year is only going to make the outcome more clearcut which I think is what we all need.
89

kimba,

29/05/2008 10:52:32
46.
90

kimba,

29/05/2008 10:53:17
46.The SNP seek to get sovereignty from Westminster and give it straight to their masters in the EU instead. They are euro-nationalists who are on the side of europe and not Scotland.
91

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 29/05/2008 10:55:04
88

livilion, the SNP may have had a restricted press in the past but the newspapers are their pals now. But this will change.
92

frank mcbride,

lusitania 29/05/2008 10:55:47
"Scotland free, or a desert.", the rallying cry of the 1820 Weavers' Rebellion.

Although coined almost 200yrs ago, it still has resonance.

After 40yrs of Wilson/Callaghan incompetence, Thatcher/Major slash & burn and Brown/Blair lies, theft and credit card economics, where are we headed?

The Union and its politicians have failed.

For the sake of our children, and our children's children, we must move to Independence.
93

ruthie,

alba 29/05/2008 10:59:16
The only "chickening out" is being done by Mr North Britain who bottled on an election last year. He and his vindictive, sleazy party are a disgrace to socialism.
94

livilion,

livingston 29/05/2008 10:59:31
91 W U Merchant
I think there's significant difference between the press reporting Labour making a right erse of themselves and being pro SNP, but you're right, when the contracts for government asdvertising contracts are being handed out then attitudes in editor's offices may well be reconsidered.
95

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

29/05/2008 11:01:55
#92 Just because a country becomes independent does not necessarily mean that its politicians are any better than before. All you may end up doing is swapping one bunch of numpties for another.
96

TommyKaye,

UK 29/05/2008 11:04:47
Maurice Fitzpatrick, senior tax manager at Grant Thornton, the accountants is quoted in the FT today:

Since the Budget in March, the Treasury has already taken an estimated £820m more than its forecasts in North Sea oil tax. The £6bn of surplus revenue would easily cover the cost of U-turns on both fuel duty and vehicle excise duty, where ministers are introducing new bands which could cost an extra £200 for drivers of inefficient cars. Deferring the 2p increase in fuel duty by six months would cost £550m. Scrapping the revamped vehicle excise duty altogether would mean the loss of an estimated £465m next year and £735m next year - although ministers m