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Banks begin to squeeze life out of middle Scotland



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Published Date: 25 October 2008
KENNY Vannon's life is wine. Every morning, he goes to his head office behind his Peebles shop and works an 11-hour day to maintain the business he has built from scratch since 1982.
The wine merchant and retailer, who supplies the majority of Scotland's Michelin-starred restaurants and launched the company when he was just 22 – has struggled through two previous economic downturns to create a firm with a £2 million turnover.

But now his financial backer, Royal Bank of Scotland, has increased the interest rate on his business loan from 6 per cent to 8.5 per cent – a move which the entrepreneur says may force him to axe staff for the first time in the 26-year history of his business.

And business leaders have warned that Vannon's Villeneuve Wines is just one of thousands of companies across Scotland that are being crippled by increased bank charges – at a time when firms are already struggling to survive the credit crunch.

Mr Vannon's troubles come as Lord Mandelson, the Business Secretary, warned banks that co-operating with small businesses was a condition of the government's £37 billion bail-out, with a new forum set up to ensure such firms are not denied crucial funds from lenders. The emergency cash will see the government essentially take control of chunks of Britain's major banks – including an expected 60 per cent share in RBS.

And increased fears of recession make financial support even more crucial for small businesses.

Those fears were fuelled by data released yesterday that showed the UK economy shrank for the first time in 16 years between June and September, by a worse than expected 0.5 per cent.

Small businesses, which make up 99 per cent of the 280,000 firms in Scotland, have been hard hit by the credit crunch, facing delays in payments from customers and a drop in trade as consumer confidence deteriorates.

The sector, which employs 1.9 million people north of the Border, is a critical part of Scotland's economy.

In the Highlands yesterday, the financial crisis was blamed for the scrapping of plans to build a £1 billion paper, pulp and energy plant on the site of the former Invergordon aluminium smelter.

The development was announced four years ago by Forscot, a Scots-Scandinavian consortium, which hoped to have it running within five years, creating 3,000 jobs during construction, with a further 500 full-time posts once built.

But the company said yesterday it had decided not to proceed further with its plans due to lack of funding and the unlikely possibility of attracting investment in the current economic climate.

Banks have claimed that the loan rate hikes are necessary to pass on increases in the cost of borrowing to their customers – but business groups hit back, saying it is now more important than ever for companies to feel the support of their financial backers.

Mr Vannon said he was stunned to be told last week that he would be charged 4 per cent above base rate on his £135,000 business loan – up from the 1.5 per cent agreed in the original terms of the loan.

His firm, which operates three retail outlets in Edinburgh, Peebles and Haddington, previously banked with HBOS, but agreed a new 15-year loan with RBS four years ago.

The businessman yesterday told The Scotsman:

"The government is supposed to be encouraging the banks to help businesses, but this is the worst treatment I have had from a financial institution in the past 26 years. I've got 15 staff here who have mortgages and bills to pay and there's a chance I might have to make cuts eventually if I can't get this situation rectified."

He said his loan was secured against property worth more than three times the value of the debt. "Nothing has changed in the business – our retail turnover is down slightly, but the supply arm, to hotels and restaurants, is up because we had expected things to slow down and made a real push to get new contracts," he said.

"When I phoned the bank, they said it was nothing to do with the credit crunch. They just considered us a higher risk business than before.

"But we're no higher risk than any other business at the moment. We have never defaulted on a payment in the whole time we've been in business."

He first felt the impact of changes to RBS charges when the bank told him last year it was to raise his overdraft fees.

"We just couldn't do it – we had to make the decision to operate without an overdraft and we have done since September," said Mr Vannon.

"They wanted to raise our rates from 1.75 per cent above base rate to 5.5 per cent, plus charge us £500 for the privilege. It was a joke but at least they did discuss it with us; this time there was no discussion."

He added: "We have a strong trading history which the bank can clearly see. If we were a high-risk start-up company with no security, then fair enough. But it is difficult enough for small businesses just now without our banks making it worse."

Colin Borland, public affairs manager at the Federation of Small Businesses Scotland, said banks were increasingly upping charges and rates in a bid to claw back money in the crunch.

He said: "This is happening more and more and the businesses are powerless. There is a big disparity between what power a small businessman has and that of a bank. It needs to be made clear to the banks that the rules of the game have changed."

He said one FSB member had been told by a Scottish bank that his overdraft – currently charged at 2.5 per cent above base rate – would increase to 6.95 per cent above base rate.

"This 'renegotiation' as it is so inaccurately called is going on an awful lot. It is about as close to bank robbery as you can get."

SNP MSP Alex Neil said: "This kind of thing will have a very damaging impact on Scotland's economy. Given that the banks are now living off the back of the taxpayer, both in terms of investment and liquidity, they should show some support in return."

A spokesman for RBS, which holds around 25 per cent of accounts belonging to Scotland's small businesses, said last night: "On a general point of principle, we price debt in a manner that is reflective of the risk involved in each transaction and, as such, we judge each case on its individual merits."

'The day the recession became real' – economy shrinks for first time in 16 years

UK SHARES went into a tailspin and sterling plunged yesterday as figures revealed the UK's economy had shrunk for the first time since just before Black Wednesday 16 years ago.

The FTSE 100 index plummeted 9 per cent at one stage, as it emerged that the economy had contracted by 0.5 per cent between July and September, which was worse than the 0.2 per cent that had been expected,

figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) showed.

The news triggered calls for interest rate cuts, with the Bank of England's Monetary Policy Committee (MPC) being urged to slash the base rate by half a point at its meeting next week.

Howard Archer, an economist with analysis group Global Insight, said he expected the MPC to cut rates to 4 per cent next month and to 2.5 per cent or lower in 2009.

Following the announcement of the figures, David Cameron, the Conservative Party leader, said: "This is the day the recession became real. We have had ten years of a government saying no more boom and bust.

"We have had ten years of a government not putting aside money for a rainy day. Well, that rainy day has now come."

Nick Clegg, the Liberal Democrat leader, warned that the country could be on the verge of a new "winter of discontent".

Speaking from his home in Fife yesterday, Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister,

said: "This is a global financial recession and we're fighting it every way we know how, working with other countries, trying to get the banks moving here in Britain, trying to help people with mortgages, at the same time increasing the winter allowance for pensioners, the tax cut of £120 going to basic-rate taxpayers.

"We're fighting this recession but we need other countries to work with us." Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, admitted the public faced "difficult months ahead".

Andrew Sentance, an MPC member, said the risk of a "deep and severe recession" had increased.

The ONS data confirmed the UK's biggest decline since the fourth quarter of 1990.

The UK economy is not technically in recession until it shows two quarters of negative growth – but this is a highly likely scenario for the final three months of this year, with output in manufacturing and the retail sector plunging.

As the gloomy data was released, the pound dipped to a six-year low against the US dollar and oil and other commodities tumbled on fears of plummeting demand that will accompany a global economic slowdown.

Across the world, markets were sent into turmoil. Japan's Nikkei index slid almost 10 per cent overnight. The FTSE recovered from its earlier losses but still closed down 5 per cent at 3,883.40.

In New York, the Dow Jones Industrial Average plummeted almost 500 points in the first few minutes of trading and remained negative, ending the day down 312.30 points – or 3.59 per cent – at 8,378.95.

The crisis also prompted further US government intervention with officials preparing to announce that 20 more banks will receive capital injections.

Gerri Peev

Q&A

The British economy is today expected to have shrunk for the first time in 16 years. Here are the answers to some common questions about what this means:

What is meant by the economy shrinking?

This means there has been a reduction in Britain's gross domestic product (GDP) during the quarter between July and August. The last time this happened was in 1992. GDP is a measure of the total flow of goods and services produced over a specified time period.

Does this mean Britain is in recession?

Not yet, but it looks likely that it is heading that way. Britain will be classed as being in a recession if the next round of quarterly figures, which will be released in January, show further contraction of the economy.

Two successive quarters of negative growth are required for the economy to be in recession.

Why has this happened?

Economic growth has been slowing for much of this year because the credit crunch has made everyone tighten their belts. The second quarter ground to a halt for the first time in 16 years, and subsequent data has pointed to a further slowdown.

Why was nothing done to stop this?

There is no simple solution.

The Government's £50 billion rescue package for the banks should make it easier to borrow money as confidence returns, but it will take time for people to save the larger deposits now being demanded for mortgages.

The Bank of England trimmed interest rates to 4.5% earlier this month to try to help growth but has to balance that with its desire to manage inflation.

The last time we faced the prospect of a slump…

PRETTY Woman was queen, Vanilla Ice was king and Thatcher was dethroned – such was Britain at the start of the last recession.

Those hardest hit by the recession in the early 1990s will remember the pain the downturn caused, at a time culturally defined by films such as Edward Scissorhands and Home Alone.

Sinead O'Connor, the Happy Mondays and Primal Scream were in the charts with Twin Peaks and Baywatch on TV.

Mr Bean, One Foot In The Grave and The Simpsons debuted on television in 1990 and a few months later the world first heard from the Three Tenors at the World Cup.

In 1990 the first Gulf war started after Iraq invaded Kuwait, which was liberated by UK and US forces. Elsewhere in the world, East and West Germany reunited and Nelson Mandela was released from prison.

The poll tax was introduced in England and Wales, prompting demonstrations. In late 1990, signs of a bursting housing bubble began to show, with property prices having previously peaked at 4.5 times people's salaries.

Interest rates were even higher as the UK's GDP dipped into negative growth by the third quarter.

The then Chancellor, Norman Lamont, told Parliament on 5 December, 1990 that the UK was entering a recession, just a week after Margaret Thatcher left 10 Downing Street for the last time.

Vanilla Ice's Ice, Ice, Baby lasted at the top of the charts for three weeks. The economic freeze took longer to melt away.





The full article contains 2175 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Evolution in action,

St Andrews 25/10/2008 00:05:41

Businesses which borrow do very well in good times, businesses which do not borrow do well in bad times.

Bad times are like moving day.
2

The Strategist,

25/10/2008 00:25:27


We need a new bank in Scotland.
3

Evolution in action,

St Andrews 25/10/2008 00:27:42

We need more Salmon and less Salmond in Scotland.
4

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/10/2008 00:30:38


The WORD "Interest"! is of amusement for our Bank's!

It has only, 'two meaning's' for them!

1. NO "INTEREST" IN THE CUSTOMER'S!

2. TO CHARGE AS MUCH, "INTEREST" AS THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH!

5

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/10/2008 00:34:32




...'INTERESTING'!, Ain't It?




6

Steven M.,

Salmondland 25/10/2008 00:38:26
Typical labour lies. If Scotland was independent everything would be great.
7

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/10/2008 01:01:30


Wuddled Fords 11,

If that Post was related, for me,...'Dinny get Smart'!

Have you Know!, I put the Scotsman News Ratings, on the web,..'through the roof' :))

Ye Dinny also want a,...

..'SLAP IN THE FACE, WITH A WET FISH' From my DYW!

Now that 'WOULD' Be of "Interest"! :D
8

Vaccav,

Sydney and Edinburgh 25/10/2008 01:02:14
Erm .. .. .. .. the increase in interest is 2.5%. Over a year, that's only 3,375 on his 135,000 loan.
After taking account of the recent half-point reduction in base rates, it's 2,700 .. .. .. or 225 per month.

Now 225 per month extra isn't good - Don't get me wrong .. .. ..
.. .. but he's unlikely to go bankrupt on the 225. Especially when his turnover seems to be 166,000 per month. The 225 will fall even further when interest rates are cut again next month.

He IS more at risk of going bankrupt from declining revenues due to people at his customers' restaurants buying less wine. I give you that. But that's a different story to the one that's been run here. The story here is that the BANK is going to send this guy bankrupt. The reality is that it won't be the BANK (if it happens), it will be the economic climate.

Come on, Scotsman .. .. .. you've made a blunder with this. I see the point in telling us all what the banks are up to. I do. I also see the point in re-emphasising that the recession is here and it's going to be ugly. But if we want to get that message across, can we do it without picking erroneous examples ? Even worse, you picked this story for the front page. How did this story get to the front page ? Is the editor on holiday or something ?
9

danbob,

25/10/2008 01:02:17
The interesting aspect of this story is that a great crowd on here stick up for the RBS and HBOS as if they are some great asset to the scottish people. These parasites will bleed the small business community dry with the help of taxpayers money. They are not an asset and should be left to rise or fall according to market forces. Next time you feel like defending these modern day mafia dons remember this. Courtesy of them job losses may be coming to a place near you.
10

famous 15,

Edinburgh 25/10/2008 01:09:31
At least Dick Turpin wore a mask. Brown and Darling robbed the small bank shareholders barefaced. Or should that be small shareholders of big banks?
11

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/10/2008 01:20:30




Vaccav ~14,....

"Ahoy there matey!

The Scotsman News are Quite Right! in reporting on how unfair our Banks ARE!!

"Phone if you have Financial Difficulties".. is,..

...What We Are Told!

ALL LIES!, If you Do Phone or see them, all they want is money one has not got at the 'Present'"

BUT!!,.....'OH-NO'!! We will 'Foreclose' all our dealings with you and,...

Repossess your Home!

See the Guy on,..'News-at-Ten' Yesterday,?

Bank Selling His Home, that he has lived in, the Majority off his Life, for a Measly,...


.........."£250.00".............


Speaks Mountains!,,..Don't IT!?



12

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/10/2008 01:23:19


bring them on ~20,

"How do you rob a bank in "modern times".

Ripp them off! for as much as you can!, Like they DO US!
13

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/10/2008 01:28:22


bring them on ~25,

Tufty 'Heed' More than Likely, uses his Head as Plastic!
14

Vaccav,

Wollstonecraft 25/10/2008 01:30:10
Charles,

It may be right to say that the banks are unfair.
Or it may not.
But I judge not.
(At least for now).
Thus your point may be right.
It may not.
But it's a different point to that which I made.
The point I made, was that this is a flawed example.
It won't be the bank that sends this guy bankrupt.
It will be the economic climate (if indeed he goes bankrupt).
That's not to say the banks are fair.
Or unfair.

I trust you will rant in response to this. Put your glass down and bang away at the keyboard .. ..


15

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/10/2008 01:30:13




Soo thats 'How-Come' We Have The,..'Plastic-Crunch'!
16

Edward,

25/10/2008 01:32:12
What an idiotic story!
Typical Labour spin
Yes you heard right, this is a story thats part of Labour's spin. Small business good - Banks bad
Its part of getting everyone against the banks, bu sticking up for the 'small business man on the high street' story (a slant on David and Goliath)
But lets look at the facts on this story
The 'small business' man in question is running a bespoke wine business, its not your normal off licence flogging £ 4.99 bottles of plonk, its a Vintners that specialises in selling to 4 and 5 star restaurants, so your talking cheapest £ 15 a bottle in a restaurant, but most likely £ 20 to £ 50 a bottle!
So when times were good, not a problem, lts of people dining out, quaffing a few bottles of what takes there fancy. Now money is to tight to mention , people are thinking twice about dining out and checking there wallet before ordering juts a glass of the house cheapest. So demand drops. Being a bespoke Vitners is probably not the best business to have right now, especially if your taking out loans!
Which brings us to the next bit about this story. Why is the 'small business' extending itself to having loans with te bank? I accept that in that kind of stock turn over you need good working capital, in good times, not really a problem, but the bad times were flagged up at least a year ago to be around the corner, so you should be working to reduce your exposure and cutting your cloth to suite your needs.
In other words, if no one is buying your wine, you certainly dont go out and buy more of the stuff to sell!
17

Bring it Off,

UK 25/10/2008 01:33:57
BROWN DISASTER FOR ALL:

How right this is BROWNS DISASTER:

The sterling crash has now begun in earnest. The pound has today (today!) fallen 9% against the Yen and is off 4% against the dollar to a lowly $1.56 with forecasts of $1.40 or lower next year. Against any other currency you may mention, it’s now plunging.

The proximate cause is news that the UK economy is shrinking far faster than expected, and there's talk about a 0.75-point interest rate cut - sooner rather than later. But on a wider prospective, this is the markets commenting more articulately than the Tories on Gordon Brown’s “scorched earth” economic policy.

It is becoming clearer that Britain is perhaps in the worst position of any developed economy in this crisis. Markets are not fooled by Brown’s mendacious claims to have reduced the national debt to 37% of GDP, and will be alarmed to see a Prime Minister use debt concealment methods that would shame the most spivvy merchant bank.

Official national debt was 43% before the bank bailouts of two weeks ago, and will be well over 100% if one counts PFI, B&B and the pension liabilities.

Debt is how Brown governed. It was his dope. It’s the key to understanding the UK economy in the last decade and the reckless nature of Brown’s short-termist policies. Debts are steroids to unscrupulous policymakers as debt-fuelled asset bubbles give a fake feeling of prosperity, which usually translates into votes for the ruling party.

That’s why Britain started this credit crunch with the largest household debt ever seen in any G7 country. Brown gambled the UK economy on a hunch that interest rates would stay low. It has failed, and now the UK public finances are going to hell in a handcart.

We’re being led by a Prime Minister who ran up a 3% deficit in the boom years and we’re now looking a deficit hitting 7% by the 2010 general election – territory not seen since the IMF bailout.

There is a serious prospect that Brown will try and i
18

Edward,

25/10/2008 01:34:17
As a saver with a bank, I certainly dont want my bank to increase its risks and exposure to stupid business practices of continueing to buy stock that they cant sell. After all its my and others savers money
19

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/10/2008 01:36:18


Vaccav ~32,

Being Sensible for a few moments, to answer your comment,...

Surely it was the "Banks" that Caused all this Mess in the first Instant,?

As in "economic climate"
20

Vaccav,

Sydney and Edinburgh 25/10/2008 01:38:02
#37

No I'm not a newbie. My comments at #32 are a response to Charles having a go at #22. It seemed like there's a lot of posts that got in between.

You said my post lacks focus. But you've made 17 posts out of the first 37. And some of the literary chessnuts involved are:

- Talking to yourself is like looking for hairs on the palm of your hand.
- Vince Cable for PM!
- IKEA are selling blue pills at discount prices.

I can't wait for you next 17 chessnuts.
21

Vaccav,

Sydney and Edinburgh 25/10/2008 01:40:09
#50

Charles,

You make a good point. I think they were a big factor in creating the current mess.

Vaccav
22

Edward,

25/10/2008 01:41:53
From the online Villeneuve Wines website
St Emilion - Bordeaux 1998
St Emilion,Le Dome St Emilion Grand Cru 1998 75cl

Price £ 200 a bottle

Or how about
Piedmont - Barolo 1997
Poderi Aldo Conterno
Aldo Conterno Gran Bussia 1997 75cl a snip at £ 100 a bottle
23

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/10/2008 01:42:23


BTO ~44,

As Asked!,...


I work all night, I work all day, to pay the bills I have to pay
Ain't it sad
And still there never seems to be a single penny left for me
That's too bad
In my dreams I have a plan
If I got me a wealthy man
I wouldn't have to work at all, I'd fool around and have a ball...

Money, money, money
Must be funny
In the rich man's world
Money, money, money
Always sunny
In the rich man's world
Aha-ahaaa
All the things I could do
If I had a little money
It's a rich man's world
24

J McAllister,

Edinburgh 25/10/2008 01:43:00
"Why was nothing done to stop this?"

Bit rich coming from The Scotsman, property-ramper par excellence.

Listen. The idea that this is some kind of random exogenous shock, or that it's all the US's fault, is TOTAL NONSENSE. The reason why the UK is in such dire straits is that it allowed an enormous asset bubble to develop, primarily in property. When you were all cheering as property prices rose, did you think that you were magically making money out of thin air? Let me explain what was actually happening. The banks were monetizing the debts every time a new mortgage was taken out. They were essentially saying, "Joe Bloggs will be doing 300k's worth of work in his lifetime, he's promised it, so we can add 300k to the money supply and start spending it". Now in many cases Joe Bloggs was unlikely to be able to do that kind of work unless inflation was rampant, so the banks were assuming that because of rising house prices, he wouldn't have to, as he could pass the burden on to someone else.

In case you didn't realise, this is a pyramid scheme. It will only work if you can convince first time buyers to take on bigger and bigger lifetime commitments, in effect transferring their promised future wealth into your pocket, right now, for you to spend.

In the absence of rampant inflation, or extraordinary productivity improvements every generation, this is a mathematical impossibility.

So when you cheered house prices going up month after month, you were cheering for a system that would inevitably end in collapse.

If you cheered property prices, dismissed the warnings of nay-sayers as being jealous or ignorant, and happily withdrew equity from your property, YOU WERE THE PROBLEM. You helped rack up the trillion-dollar debts by spending without producing, hoping the producing would be done by someone else. And you drove young people to the point where they could no longer countenance taking on a burden that would destroy them.

To summarise, to all the pro
25

Vaccav,

Sydney and Edinburgh 25/10/2008 01:44:01
In reference to my own post #56.

In between me starting to write that post .. .. ..
.. .. .. and finishing it .. .. ..

Bring them on has managed to surpass even my wildest dreams via his contribution to the great debate. 10+ posts of identical nonsensical comments.

QED
26

Edward,

25/10/2008 01:44:33
Speyside
Macallan Single Malt Whisky
The Macallan 25 Years Old 43% Vol 70cl

£ 180 a bottle
27

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/10/2008 01:45:05



"wealthy man" well I Dinny want that 'Of-Course'! :)

But you get the 'Gist'! :DD
28

Vaccav,

Sydney and Edinburgh 25/10/2008 01:45:59
#63

Sorry, I need another clue.
Maybe then I'll understand.
29

J McAllister,

Edinburgh 25/10/2008 01:46:20
Stupid bug-ridden website.

Anyhow...to summarise, to all the property rampers:

Q. "Why was nothing done to stop this?"
A. Because you were too greedy, arrogant and economically incompetent.

Now we all pay the price.
30

Vaccav,

Wollstonecraft 25/10/2008 01:48:51
#76

Some good points in your comments.


31

notime4anovice,

embra 25/10/2008 01:49:26
Wish my life was wine.
Jane Bradley sounds cool.
32

Vaccav,

Wollstonecraft 25/10/2008 01:52:48
# 100:

why stop at 100 ?
Go for a 1000 .. .. ..
33

Vaccav,

Wollstonecraft 25/10/2008 01:54:21
#100

If you continue posting every 12 seconds or so, it will take you only 3 hours to get to 1000.
C'mon.
No one's done it before.
You could be the first.
34

Vaccav,

Sydney and Edinburgh 25/10/2008 01:58:36
He's stopped.
Thank goodness.
I thought that would work.
35

Charles Linskaill,

Edinburgh 25/10/2008 02:01:15


An artificial season
Covered by summer rain
Losing all my reason
Cause there's nothing left to blame
Shadows paint the sidewalk
A living picture in a frame
See the sea of people
All their faces look the same
So I sat down for a while
Forcing a smile
In a state of self-denial
Is it worthwhile
Sell my pity for a dime
Just one dime
Sell my pity for a dime
Just one dime
Plain talk can be the easy way
Signs of losing my faith
losing my faith
Plain talk can be the easy way
Signs of losing my faith
losing my faith
So I sat down for a while
Forcing a smile
In a state of self-denial
Is it worthwhile
Sell my pity for a dime
Just one dime
Sell my pity for a dime
Just one dime
Sellin, sellin my pity for dime
and another man take my soul
So I sat down for a while
Forcing a smile
In a state of self-denial
Is it worthwhile
Sell my pity for a dime
Just one dime
Sell my pity for a dime
Just one dime
Sellin, sellin my pity for dime
and another man take my soul
36

Incandescent,

25/10/2008 03:40:59
Well then Bring Them On nighshift - bet you can't wait until you're relieved by BTO day shift at 9:30, eh? You started out quite amusing tonight but, oh dear, you appear to be a wee bit bored with no major SNP stories to troll :-)
37

Vaward,

25/10/2008 03:53:50
Bring them on, the property boom happened in many countries, in some like Ireland and Australia it was even more pronounced. Interesting times, eh?

It
38

Keith Lagden,

25/10/2008 05:44:11
bring them on: are you suffering from a stutter or just a creton?
39

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 25/10/2008 07:04:09
I'll lend money to the wino at a the same rate as I get it from the banks viz. 5%.
40

Helter Skelter,

25/10/2008 07:15:35
bto

you're scaring me ...you remind me of that scene in the shining whan Jack Nicholson's on screen wife sneeks a peek at what he's been doing on his typewriter.

Anyway, the government said at the outset that it did not want to become involved in the day to day running of the banks that have been bailed out, and I don't see that the government can do much to help unless it is prepared to have a presence in the boardrooms of these banks with an absolute veto over matters such as the cost of credit to small businesses.

The conundrum here is that we got into this mess by banks lending too much too cheaply and without adequate security , and now that the banks seek to reverse that trend, small businesses are being squeezed.

But if the government is serious about helping small businesses, there are only two means by which this might be achieved, firstly by taking executive control over the banks, or secondly, setting up a scheme that offers direct financial support to small businesses.

Option 2 would be the preferred option, but devising a scheme which is 'abuse proof' would take far too long, and doubtless there would be delays whilst claims were scrutinised ...the banks would be free to take recovery action in the meantime.

So, my view is that realistically, the only option open to the government is to march into the boardrooms of HBOS and the others and start 'laying down the law'...these small businesses run on the edge, and if the government wants to provide effective protection it will need to move fast.
41

Helter Skelter,

25/10/2008 07:16:19
bto

you're scaring me ...you remind me of that scene in the shining whan Jack Nicholson's on screen wife sneeks a peek at what he's been doing on his typewriter.

Anyway, the government said at the outset that it did not want to become involved in the day to day running of the banks that have been bailed out, and I don't see that the government can do much to help unless it is prepared to have a presence in the boardrooms of these banks with an absolute veto over matters such as the cost of credit to small businesses.

The conundrum here is that we got into this mess by banks lending too much too cheaply and without adequate security , and now that the banks seek to reverse that trend, small businesses are being squeezed.

But if the government is serious about helping small businesses, there are only two means by which this might be achieved, firstly by taking executive control over the banks, or secondly, setting up a scheme that offers direct financial support to small businesses.

Option 2 would be the preferred option, but devising a scheme which is 'abuse proof' would take far too long, and doubtless there would be delays whilst claims were scrutinised ...the banks would be free to take recovery action in the meantime.

So, my view is that realistically, the only option open to the government is to march into the boardrooms of HBOS and the others and start 'laying down the law'...these small businesses run on the edge, and if the government wants to provide effective protection it will need to move fast.
42

harvey05,

25/10/2008 07:42:11
BTO!

Your a bafoon
43

Isonomia,

Lenzie 25/10/2008 08:38:04
This economic recession was caused by an excess of credit and no amount of increased borrowing is going to remedy it.

Whilst it is sad for the business and jobs that were created on a model of unsustainable borrowing (much as the whole labour economy and whole republican ... in fact the whole political elite's economy held up by it's credit boot-straps)

... whilst it is sad for those who created jobs by borrowing, what our economy has to do is to leave within our means... to borrow what we can afford to pay back.

Unfortunately, in the true sense, we are "borrowing" assets from the future like oil and gas which we've no ability at all to pay back. We've frivolously built an economy based on burning up oil, we've packed the country full of people fed on oil-based agriculture and now the oil is running out and our whole infrastructure is about to collapse because we won't be able to afford the oil.

Whether someone selling wines by borrowing massively goes to the wall because borrowing has to be reduced is the least of our worries ... whether any of us will be able to afford wines in the future is what concerns me!
44

cabrach loon,

inverness 25/10/2008 08:45:50
how many more times must we hear broon blaming the world instead of his lax fiscal poilicies and lack of regulation on banks lending against bad risks and greater percentages than is safe or wise.
Will he never stop blaming others for hos own greed and incompetence and waste.
How long will it ake now to put the UK house in order and get rid of the deficit and nugov borrowing at a time when all taxpayers are told not to borrow.
Stupid nugov they think the taxpayers have bottomless pockets when instead they have been milked dry!
45

James, Edinburgh,

25/10/2008 09:08:34
If Mr. Vannon has been in business since 1982, he must have gone through the same 'boom and bust' times that many of us had to thole between then and now. In 1990, my business loan was being charged at 17.5% (4 over base)and I had to increase my monthly payments. By 1996, when the final payments were made, the rate had dropped by such an amount, I was able to pay off early. The bank had title over my business premises and a second mortgage over my house which was worth seven times more than the business. Because it was a cash business, they charged me for every penny paid into the account (because they had to count it!). When did you ever see bank tellers manually counting business cash these days?

To get back to the 'res', if you are in business, you grit your teeth, pay the interest, adapt the goods to the buyer, work all the hours you can and, when you retire, look back and reap the rewards.
46

Martyk,

25/10/2008 09:21:39
No.
47

Russell M,

Stirling 25/10/2008 09:32:45
Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS), Royal indeed! First we had optimistic predatory banking, now we are getting pessimistic predatory banking. What's changed? The directors of RBS need to come back to the reality soon that we're all in this together. If they want to survive.

For 300 generations we, the people of Scotland, took care of their own business until 10 generations ago our nobility was seduced by the illusion of easy money and easy living from the south.

In Scottish tradition, the tide floats all boats. Those who, for what ever reason, fail to support this ideal may find themselves cast adrift.
48

fegan,

n/Ireland 25/10/2008 09:39:03
I deal with RBS, the suits are still living the good life plenty of cash to spend nice cars big houses game on no change.This is why the interest rates are being pushed up, some mug has to provide the cash to maintain the life style.
If TAX payers Cash is being used to prop up the Banks salaries need cut and bonuses abolished. If they are not prepared to make sacrifices like every one else let them fall and live on the Doal that would be a reality wake up big time.
49

tommy M,

scotland 25/10/2008 09:54:58
Gordon Brown is a noose round Scotland's neck. Time for him to be voted out.Agree with you entirely about the banker suits but what did PM Brown do to regulate the industry over the last decade? Zilch.

People of Glenrothes, please show the corrupt, greedy Labour party the door.

The party's over.
50

danbob,

25/10/2008 10:01:09
How anyone can defend these robbers is unbelievable. The interest rate that banks charge each other is falling. RBS asks the taxpayer to bail them out and then set about putting small business under the cosh. Recession means nothing to them. Job losses are someone elses problem. It is clear as day nothing has been learned.
51

Arran of Arran,

Arran 25/10/2008 10:16:03
The Government would have been better advised to let the Banks go bust and open with the saved 50 Billions a State Bank to lend to small businesses and to homeowners on reasonable terms. It can also serve a a savings Bank, paying perhaps 4% and asking for an interest of 6%. This would give a gross Bank Income of £1 billon. But dreaming of a caring state is probably nothing but dreaming.
52

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 25/10/2008 10:38:21
An SNP win in Glenrothes will not change anything as it's already been factored in.

If I lived there (and ever voted) I'd probably support SNP myself, much as I loathe it, just to help give Brown a good kicking.

That Nationalists are getting all excited goes to show just how shallow is Nat thought.

Independence is not the vital factor: just ask Ireland, Iceland, Denmark, Argentina, etc.

Unity is strength, not weakness.
53

noswod,

Honestas 25/10/2008 10:59:38
Of all the banks Nat West used to be the best in a depression. You just said to them, I am going bust if you send in the administrators you will get nothing. They would say come and see me son put you on the rack if you could convince them you has a casah flow then you could do a deal with them and they would stick with it. Provided that you kept them informed things could go wrong and they would support you. Nowadays from all banks a computer generated letter comes the post stating your interest rate is 12% and if your luckly you get to speak to a call centre on the planet Mars who say hard luck the computer says 12%. Northern Rock reposses you immediately and all the other banks get out of their starting blocks quickly. Not only are we as taxpayers funding this bunch of cowboys, our Government are saying to them pay back quickly sand recapitalise hence the repossesions and high interest rates to the vunerable group of customers. See you all down in the Grassmarket.
54

FrankJB,

Old York 25/10/2008 11:00:22
Besides the obvious headlines of banks still not learning the lessons of the last 10 years (same guys in place & just watch for news of their bonuses quietly lost in the froth over christmas this year) - the big big thing that no-one so far has realised is the effects of Sterling collapsing against the US dollar. In 3 months the pound has dropped from US$2.07 down to US$1.50 - that's 25% folks.
Whch means every single thing that this country (that's you & I) buys from a country outside of Europe - um that means North & South America, China, India etc etc etc as most trading nations cost their gods in US Dollars for export.

All food from these countries, cars, electrical goods, Oil - yes Oil..., etc etc etc will be going up in price by 25% just like that. Now that's what you call inflation.

It happened at the end of last year when the pound dropped 15% against the Euro - everything from Europe went up (especially European food which Tesco etc are hooked on) - hence the food inflation we have seen earlier this year. Well, get ready for it all to happen again.

The up side of this is that it will be cheaper to make these things in the UK now rather than import them. More companies starting up? More jobs? In theory yes - But of course where is the money to start up these projects? Ask the banks!



55

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 25/10/2008 11:34:29
So many people have been saying that our current problems have been caused by banks overreaching themselves and offering too much easy credit. Now that they tighten up on credit they are criticised for that as well.

So what should the banks do?
56

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 25/10/2008 12:05:28
137

Its the timing thats the problem ugly they overreach when they should be cautious and are only cautious when the horse has bolted. Instead of basing their business ethic on greed and self service maybe they should consider their customers and staff once in a while and build a business ethic on trust and fairness.
The Scottish business way not the English rip off business mentality.
57

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 25/10/2008 12:06:41
"Banks begin to squeeze life out of middle Scotland"

WTF do they think they are playing at thats the UK governments job.
58

Media 1,

cape town 25/10/2008 12:16:30
Any person who has used credit is responsible for the current problems - if everyone used the cash they had as opposed to the cash they didnt have, we wouldnt be in this mess....
So the blame lies at the hands of the masses, end of story.
59

Isonomia,

Lenzie 25/10/2008 12:33:12
For all those who are fed up with the traditional banks, here's the good news. As more and more transactions are being carried out online, and there is less and less need for online traders to deposit their cash into the traditional banks, there will develop a massive new banking sector which will totally undercut the traditional banks.

The banks think that business needs them because business has needed banks to clear cheques, debit cards, etc. etc.

But now businesses are getting paid virtually through paypal & google and as the money never needs to leave the virtual world of the internet and go through the money grabbing hands of the banks who take their cut for their high incomes at every stage. Instead, virtual companies, can pay the suppliers in paypal/google credits, these companies can pay their suppliers in such credits all at a faction of the cost of hard-banks.

Soon as more an more people realise they can massively cut costs by bypassing the hard-banks the virtual banking will come to dominate money transactions.

And here is the bad news:

The UK has no banks operating in this sector! Another disaster for the UK because of the inbred banking sector unable to think beyond their massive bonuses for fleecing the customers!
60

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 25/10/2008 13:24:06
88

If nobody did any business with the banks then they would be in a worse state than they are in now.
How can anybody so stupid be so brave in advertising the fact so often?
61

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 25/10/2008 13:25:43
89

That may work right up until the virtual lenders decide they can make bigger profits by charging more.
62

,

25/10/2008 15:08:38
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
63

Niall,

Fraserburgh 25/10/2008 15:23:45
I am an accountant practicing in the NE. Just recently a number of my Clients who bank with RBS have received letters or phone calls from their banks about their overdrafts and loans. This is causing a great deal of worry and I got in contact with one RBS manager who informed me that they had received instructions to "Minimise their exposure to risk." When I pressed for more details it appears this is a condition imposed by the treasury upon them as part of the bail out.

Yet we have PM Brown saying that small businesses must be protected during this recession and the treasury under Alastair Darling saying the opposite to the banks. Sure the right foot (in mouth) does not know what the left hand is doing? Who are we to believe? Actions speak louder than words and I am warning my Clients that very tough times lie ahead because the UK Government is completely out of touch with the realities faced by small businesses.

Who is telling the truth and who is lying?

64

"Hoots" Fandango,

Hamilton 25/10/2008 15:45:31
1087 comments?
65

GEORGE KING,

DUMFRIES SCOTLAND 25/10/2008 16:49:53
hopefully i will visit this wine shop one day and become a valued customer
66

Dr Blockbuster aka Vince,

25/10/2008 17:05:31
Visit it here since my post has gone into hyperspace somewhere:

http://www.villeneuvewines.com/
67

tree,

Edinburgh 25/10/2008 17:34:42
No. 89 :"Soon as more and more people realise they can massively cut costs by bypassing the hard-banks the virtual banking will come to dominate money transactions.

And here is the bad news:

The UK has no banks operating in this sector! "

This isn't true. HSBC operate in this sector of business banking, and have done for years. Free internet banking for businesses up to a turnover of £500K p.a. Free standing order transfers to a current account which works like a normal personal current account and you can even draw out up to £1000 a month via ATMs at no further cost. RBS don't have an equivalent product. Gee, this must be one of the reasona why RBS is in the doldrums and HSBC don't need a government bailout to survive - their once loyal customers are deserting them for fairer, HSBC, shores.
68

mike3,

Midlands 25/10/2008 18:18:50
Hasn't the Central Belt been dead for years?
69

Western Gael,

25/10/2008 18:35:29
Banks do not make loans based on deposits. They borrow money from larger banks to lend to their own credit-worthy customers. The interest rate your neighborhood bank charges is enough larger than what it must pay back to make a profit, yet low enough to be competitive with other local banks. If their source of financing increases the cost, they must also, passing that on to their customers.
70

Scotish Exile,

25/10/2008 18:52:18
The fat cat bankers have bled every last penny out of the economy to line their pockets and the government have the temerity to use our money to bail them out, so it can continue, how long will it be until Broon the clown get a few directorship's in banks??
71

The_Reiver,

25/10/2008 22:03:24
The RBS and HBOS are a disgrace to Scotland.

All patriotic Scots should transfer their savings (if they have any left) to the Clydesdale.



72

Friar Tuck,

Port Perry, Ontario, Canada 25/10/2008 22:43:45
I got pi**ed off with the Canadian banks increasing service charges, so I joined a Credit Union. I am a shareholder in this credit union and I have not paid one cent service charge since I joined. I can do all the things that can be done in a regular bank, just cheaper. I don't know if you have a similar thing in Scotland.

By the way, #102 - The_Reiver - Clydesdale is owned by an Australian Bank. As far as I can tell, RBS is the only "Scottish" bank now.
73

Dijit,

Glasgow 25/10/2008 22:55:10
What do you expect? He's got a bargain.

Gordon & Alistair are charging RBS 12%.

When Gordon says he's 'working' with you, be afraid.
Be very very afraid!
74

dralcar,

Edmonton 26/10/2008 01:40:39
Dear J McAllister #44

All of what you said is true. Let me expand on your argument. Forty years ago, bank management was confined to savings and checking accounts and issuing loans and credit. Over these years our banks and financial institutions have diversified into providing twenty plus different liquidity and financial services.

Today, the concept behind bank management is being applied to different services and organizations that range from investment banking, market making, insurance, leasing to real estate development and construction lending, underwriting and sub-prime lending and many other financial services.

As a result, bank managers face an increasingly complex set of challenges for the next decade. Our media is providing evidence of these challenges as they are showing up in the current global financial conditions. These challenges are the result of rapid rate of change in:
• consumption of energy and raw materials,
• investor demands,
• cost of living,
• the marketplace,
• innovation and technology,
• global competition,
• sources of long-term inflation,
• causes of a mild recession,
• financial institutions’ ability to provide credit, and
• geopolitical conditions that effect trade, bank liquidity and investments.

These new challenges have existed before, but not to the degree that they do today. These conditions have imposed enormous strains on existing organizational forms in banking, financial liquidity and the government’s monetary institutions. The traditional structure is highly bureaucratic, and experience has shown that it cannot respond rapidly enough to the present changing environment. Thus, we need changes in leadership, direction and effective management structures that are highly organic and can respond rapidly as situations develop inside and outside the banks and our monetary institutions. This means replacing the traditional banking and monetary structure. Maximizing profitability is not the purpose o
75

dralcar,

Edmonton 26/10/2008 01:43:46
Continued ...
Maximizing profitability is not the purpose of, but a limiting factor on, a bank and its financial activities. We need a sustainable measure, not a count. Ask Warren Buffet how he measures growth on his investments.

76

The Strategist,

26/10/2008 13:41:07
If you all believe that the banks are doing Scotland more harm than good then lobby your local Councillor to get the Councils to set up a "mutual" bank owned by the Scottish people and governed by trustees rather than a bunch of fund managers in the City of London.

Just put RBS and HBOS out of business...It's easy really. It's the market teaching them the lesson they need to be taught.
77

keystone,

Wisconsin USA 26/10/2008 18:27:56
Let there be no doubt, the average banker working for a major bank, learned his craft by studying how FAGAN of Oliver Twist fame did business. They will cheat the small business person every chance they have. Why do I write such a thing? I've studied banking history. NO small business man should ever trust a large bank, and should only do business with a smaller local bank, for does it not make sense that a SMALL banker understands the SMALL business person. A small business person working with a very large bank is like believing that the Fagan from Inland Revenue is really coming to help you when he says he'll be around shortly to have a look at the books. Small business person be afraid, be very afraid of two things, your supposed friends at large impersonal banking houses, and your supposed friends from Inland Revenue.!

 

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