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The End? Battle to keep HBOS independent suffers fresh blow



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Published Date: 21 November 2008
THE two banking knights who launched a last-ditch attempt to keep HBOS independent are today expected to throw in the towel, blaming the UK government for scuppering their proposals.
Sir Peter Burt and Sir George Mathewson are set to announce the end of their campaign, amid anger at the position taken by the Chancellor, Alistair Darling, towards the Lloyds TSB takeover of HBOS.

But even with the two big guns out of the running
, there remained some hope yesterday that an alternative bidder may yet come forward with a deal which would save jobs in Scotland.

Speaking to The Scotsman last night, Sir Peter said: "He (the Chancellor] made it clear that he would not brook any alternative to the Lloyds offer.

"Obviously, this is very disappointing, but that is why we are seriously considering throwing in the towel at this stage."

Sir Peter, a former chairman of HBOS, and Sir George, a former chief executive of RBS, launched a campaign earlier this month to encourage tens of thousands of small HBOS shareholders to sign up for and support an extraordinary general meeting to oust the chairman, Lord Stevenson, and chief executive, Andy Hornby, from the board.

They also hoped to mobilise shareholders to vote against the proposed Lloyds TSB offer at the HBOS meeting set for 12 December.

A website was set up to promote the challenge and garner support from shareholders.

From the outset, The Scotsman, has spearheaded a campaign for answers about the takeover.

But Mr Darling this week effectively slammed the door on a rival bid when he set tough conditions on any alternative rescue deal.

The Chancellor made it clear that the Treasury would not match its offer to buy shares in a stand-alone bank at the same rate as that for the takeover by Lloyds TSB.

It is feared that a Lloyds takeover of HBOS will deal a damaging blow to Edinburgh as a centre of banking and financial services, with the brunt of job losses – in £1.5 billion of savings planned by the Lloyds directors – falling in Scotland. Latest estimates suggest as many as 60,000 jobs could go in the takeover.

A letter has already been sent by Alex Salmond, First Minister, to the Chancellor, accusing him of breaking his promise of providing "a level playing field" for alternatives to the Lloyds TSB takeover.

Mr Salmond wrote: "The (Treasury] statement sets out the detail for future applications from banks currently raising capital seeking to negotiate 'a substantively new proposal with HM Treasury over recapitalisation'.

"While it is not specifically set out in your statement, there is concern that any move towards a stand-alone option for HBOS would constitute such a 'substantively new proposal' in the eyes of the Treasury."

The issue again flared up at First Minister's Questions yesterday, when Tavish Scott, the Scottish Lib Dem leader, condemned the UK government for its "disgraceful" actions.

He said: "They have ripped up the level playing field, they have broken their promises, they have thrown 20,000 jobs to the wind.

"At the dawn of a recession, Scottish business has found itself raided by the banks and abandoned by Labour and the Treasury."

Nationalist MSP Alex Neil, a former economist who recently abandoned his own efforts to find an alternative bidder to Lloyds, insisted there was still hope. "Even if the two banking knights no longer feel able to ride to the rescue, you can never rule anything out," he said.

"Often in these cases, bids come in late on and while the Treasury may be trying to discourage that from happening, there is always hope."

The Treasury has denied claims there has not been a level playing field for alternatives to the Lloyds TSB deal. It has briefed that the only alternative is full nationalisation, raising the prospect of shareholders losing everything.

The Treasury has claimed the Lloyds offer is the only one on the table and that it is seeking a solution that will provide stability in the banking sector.

However, it has come under fire for lifting competition rules which would have blocked the merger. It is claimed the superbank will be bad for consumers because it will distort the market by creating an institution that has too high a proportion of banking loans and savings business, undermining competition.

RBS chair admits ABN was step too far in a regrettable year

SIR Tom McKillop, the Royal Bank of Scotland chairman, yesterday admitted that the acquisition of ABN Amro, which critics have often cited as a deal too far, was a key factor that forced the bank into partial nationalisation.

RBS shareholders yesterday voted overwhelmingly in favour of raising £19.7 billion in new capital for RBS in a share placing that is largely expected to be taken up by the government next week.

Sir Tom told a meeting of about 250 RBS shareholders the acquisition of ABN and the bank's "strategy of capital efficiency" became problems as the global financial crisis worsened over the past year.

RBS's acquisition of the Dutch bank exposed it to toxic assets holdings affected by the collapse of the US investment bank Lehman Brothers in September.

This, as well as an increased need for wholesale funding, nearly toppled RBS, forcing it to accept the largest share of the bank bail-out offered by the UK government in October.

Sir Tom said: "The acquisition increased our exposure to those wholesale markets within which many of the problems have emerged during the course of this financial crisis."

He added: "In retrospect the higher exposure to assets, which later became difficult to trade, and the need to fund an enlarged balance sheet as access to liquidity became increasingly difficult, increased the short-term vulnerability to the group to the financial crisis as it intensified this year."

Shareholders yesterday voted 99.28 per cent in favour of the government bail-out, which will see the bank offer £15 billion in new ordinary shares, with the government promising to buy up any remaining.

Yesterday the share price closed at 46p, far below the 65.5p offer price, which makes it unlikely many will buy the shares.

The government has said it will buy £5 billion in preference shares, which RBS will buy back in time.

The shareholders who attended yesterday's meeting at the Church of Scotland Assembly Hall on the Mound in Edinburgh demanded that the board, in particular the outgoing chief executive Sir Fred Goodwin, apologise for its mistakes.

Sir Tom apologised at least three times in his speech, while Sir Fred stood to say he too was "extremely sorry".

The general meeting marked Sir Fred's last day as chief executive of RBS, although he is expected to work with the incoming chief executive, Stephen Hester, through to January. Sir Tom will retire in April.

Mr Hester said he was not "tainted" by the crisis which led Sir Fred and Sir Tom to resign. "I owe my job to the fact I haven't become tainted in the last couple of years by banking," he said.



The full article contains 1189 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

57vintage,

Keith 21/11/2008 09:26:56
"there remained some hope yesterday that an alternative bidder may yet come forward with a deal"

Well, FFS don't hold back.

Too many have chanted empty mantras or gone on vanity trips over this already.

Let's see the colour of your colateral.

I have no doubt which way the HBOS shareholders (probably the custodians of YOUR pension fund, so we may all be complicit) will vote, however.
2

Another Saturday Night,

21/11/2008 09:50:17
Ha, ha, ha

Excuses, excuses, excuses.

We couldnae dae what we said we would, so us "knights" will blame the government.


Very poor show from the knights as they retreat to their castles.
3

Satire above all,

21/11/2008 09:56:21
Scotland will not forget their perfidy, or should I say the larger body of Scots who do not call themselves British first and Scots second, will not forget their perfidy.
4

jackhobbs,

glasgow 21/11/2008 09:56:23
The pensioners can now go back to their 'golf and lounge about in their exclusive clubs' and let the people running the banks get on with their jobs !! On Sunday 'The Politics Show' and their presenter can concentrate on proper news stories that will not allow discredited people/politicians to fly kites. Let us see no more of Tavish Scott (after all he represents less constituents in Scotland than watch Partick Thistle)claiming that he is important enough to be listened to on a subject of which he obviously knows very little !!!
5

bluehead,

edinburgh 21/11/2008 10:08:42
the two ghouls are making it go their way ,they will do anything to make the Scottish people subservient,and spoil any kind of independence,! brown and darling are the disgrace of Scotland.
6

G,

dundy 21/11/2008 10:09:07
"Speaking to The Scotsman last night, Sir Peter said: "He (the Chancellor] made it clear that he would not brook any alternative to the Lloyds offer."

What OFFER!!!!
There was no offer - therefore the chancellor didn't look at it - if theses geniuses had come up with a offer then they might have a case....but it is all supposition...the fact is there has been no other offer!!!
#3 typical SNP rubbish - the "perfidy" here only exists in your mind....but you would rather have HBOS go to the wall as a pseudo-Scottish bank than have to saved in a merger....where were the SNP during all of this???? Hiding behind the sofa blaming everyone else and doing nothing!"!!!!
7

walter,

21/11/2008 10:16:03
Mr Salmond wrote: "The (Treasury] statement sets out the detail for future applications from banks currently raising capital seeking to negotiate 'a substantively new proposal with HM Treasury over recapitalisation'.
"While it is not specifically set out in your statement, there is concern that any move towards a stand-alone option for HBOS would constitute such a 'substantively new proposal' in the eyes of the Treasury."

If it is not in the statement then why bring it up. Why not enquire about what is in the statement and what it will mean.

As for the two Sirs was it not them that led the banks onto the road that took them to where they are.



8

Calum10,

21/11/2008 10:16:30
GOODBYE BANK OF SCOTLAND - HELLO UNEMPLOYMENT.

9

noswod,

Honestas 21/11/2008 10:34:16
Latest new twa old duffers outwitted by another bunch of Edinburgh Duffers. Aye teh twa old duffers frae the Golf course couldne buy the bank because they were using Scots Mist option futres credit default swabs (otherwise known are hot air) tae pay for it. Luckly the twa punters in Dooning Strass widney have anything tae do with it and the twa olde duffers have had tae go back to the land of illusion SNP division. Awfi business
10

Calum10,

21/11/2008 11:11:28
LATEST NEWS: Alistair Darling is to announce plans to NATIONALISE the banks on Monday if they don't improve the level of lending through the government's re-capitalisation plans.

So what is the point of Lloyds taking over HBOS if both banks end up being nationalised. Also why should HBOS share holders now support the takeover when they could still lose everything. It makes their vote irrelevant.

11

Ronaldo Stuffed Everyone,

21/11/2008 11:19:38
Yet again the collective stupidity that seems to surround scottish comments about HBOS is still alive and kicking.
HBOS is not an independent Scottish bank - it is a company that was formed by the merger of Halifax Bank and the Bank of Scotland. Since the merger, which was foisted on customers by BOS management, HBOS has been controlled from England.
12

TWC,

21/11/2008 11:25:41
This isn't over yet, I will assume that whatever the redundancies due to HBoS, they will be down to a Political decision by Brown.

I will vote accordingly, an independent review of the financial situation would have given confidence when it is already accepted that this is anti competition.

I'm not getting caught up in the political split, this will affect Scots of all political colours.
13

Darien,

Panama 21/11/2008 11:28:54
Let's hope the voters in Edinburgh and Kirkcaldy etc at the next election remember the role of Darling and Brown in the downfall of Scotland's banks and the economic damage that results. Darling and Brown are both the architects and executioners here. Their motive is political - it is to try to demonstrate that only they as British Nationalists have the power to 'rescue' bust banks. This is no rescue. This is a carve-up based on a British Nationalist agenda which illustrates a hatred of any notion of Scottish national identity. We are all nationalists, but they are British Nationalists, and the most rabid British Nationalists are Scots 'unionists' like Darling & Brown and their Scots New Labour compatriots. They are a parcel of rogues. The sooner Scots realise this once and for all the better.
14

1stEdinburgh,

Scotland 21/11/2008 11:33:00
To anyone gloating about the demise of HBOS (and there are plenty of sick people posting here), it's not over until it's over. The final say is with the HBOS shareholders who are on a hiding to nothing here. I would be so bold as to say that it might not go Brown's way in the end.
He's done everything in his power to scupper any alternative deal and together with the LLoyds TSB puppets Mr Hornby and 'Lord' Stevenson running HBOS to the ground then selling it to the lowest bidder, it's a shameful episode in Scotland's financial history, on a par with the Panama disaster I'd say.
If the Scotsman together with Sir Burt and Sir Mathewson, the SNP, ScotLibs (and why not the Tories) keep the fight going, who knows what happens?
Did you know by the way that Lloyds TSB has put a clause (together with their cohorts at HBOS) in the contract that if the deal doesn't go through, they will ask for £ 150m in compensation? £ 150m for what?
I am amazed that anyone sane here can write a good word about Labour, Brown and Darling. I hope they get kicked out of Westminster soon in the same way they got kicked out of Holyrood.
15

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/11/2008 11:36:31
#10 Nationalising the banks seems to be an attractive option for some - Sweden did it during the Nordic banking crisis in the early 1990s and came out rather well. The problem of repeating taht for UK banks is that the scale of the problem is so much bigger.

Personally, I would prefer Darling to use the 2 institutions that are already nationalised, Bradford & Bingley and Northern Rock, to improve the levels of lending to homeowners and SMEs.
16

Coutts,

Ayrshire 21/11/2008 11:43:22
As a shareholder in HBOS I would vote against the Lloyds TSB "deal".... This is an atom bomb for Scotland. I would rather see HBOS remain independent - have less redundancies and take the hit personally. Sir Peter Burt and Sir George Mathewson instill more confidence than the current board.

Darling and Brown's actions reek to high heaven. I will never, ever vote labour again. They have destroyed their own country....and sold us down the river at "ASDA price".

17

pwd,

Borders 21/11/2008 11:47:13
*3
" .... the larger body of Scots who do not call themselves British first and Scots second ...."

What is this 'larger body'? Is it the 17% of the Scots electorate who voted SNP in 2007?
18

Macd123,

21/11/2008 12:00:03
For the benefit of chippy guys like #2, #4 and #9, George Mathewson isn't from Edinburgh, he went to a state school and he doesn't play golf!
19

English flag,

21/11/2008 12:07:15
I recieved my ballot papers yesterday,i like many others voted "yes".
20

English flag,

21/11/2008 12:09:17
16. Darling is a Englishman,get your facts right before talking cr-p!
21

fiferjohn,

21/11/2008 12:10:49
i say to hbos customers if the deal goes through then remove all your money to another bank that is what i am doing.
see browns back room deal go sour then with the results going the opposite way
22

English flag,

21/11/2008 12:11:30
16. Alistair Darling.born. 28 November 1953 (1953-11-28) (age 54)
Hendon, London
23

JayDeeTee,

21/11/2008 12:12:52
#19. Now there's a surprise. All the Unionists rejoice. Suppose the RBS is next. Grind the impudent nation away, bit by bit.
24

English flag,

21/11/2008 12:13:07
21. Funny that,i have just invested another £10,000 BECAUSE of the deal!
25

English flag,

21/11/2008 12:16:53
23.Oh do grow up,you sound like an petulant child!
26

fiferjohn,

21/11/2008 12:19:09
englissh flag if even a fraction of hbos customers do that it will start a run and brown will be in the sh**t that is the point he pushing this deal for personal reasons and making sure it is the only one on the table.
so you may lose your 10 grand
27

JayDeeTee,

21/11/2008 12:20:13
#25. Listen mate, your own posts are juvenile. Belt up and give us a rest.
28

English flag,

21/11/2008 12:22:46
26. That is the biggest load of bo--ocks, typical scottish reaction!
29

English flag,

21/11/2008 12:27:10
27. My own posts tell it as it is,something most nat supporters don't want to hear,well,i'm really sorry to say but HBOS will be taken over by Lloyds TSB,and scottish independence will not happen for at least another 30 years!
30

brownlie,

21/11/2008 12:31:47
28 English flagging

Yes, you're quite right, the typical Scotsman has the biggest bo--ocks. How on earth did you know?
31

JayDeeTee,

21/11/2008 12:33:28
#29. How do you arrive at your second point? Give us the facts mate.
32

fiferjohn,

21/11/2008 12:35:40
#25 i am against it because brown was hatching this before hbos was in trouble and he is blocking anyone else even coming forward.if brown says its good then it is't
33

English flag,

21/11/2008 12:41:41
31. dispite the 17% of scots who voted for the SNP,the majority STILL support the union,and things are only going to get worse as salmonds promises fall by the way side.
34

Coutts,

Scotland 21/11/2008 12:43:24
No. 20

They're destroying Britain not just Scotland. Do you think taking over HBOS is going to help English employees either. Lots of English jobs in the bank to be chopped...sadly.
35

JayDeeTee,

21/11/2008 12:46:13
#33. How did you arrive at "and scottish independence will not happen for at least another 30 years" though. What evidence did you use in reaching this conclusion?
36

brownlie,

21/11/2008 12:47:14
33 English Flag

How do you know that the majority STILL support the union?
37

Coutts,

21/11/2008 12:56:59
No. 33

I do.
38

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 21/11/2008 13:02:22
I find it embarassing posters of any political affinity gloating about this.
33
The scottish PEOPLE have never ever voted for a Union FACT
39

notime4anovice,

glasgow 21/11/2008 13:10:58
#10
'Darling threatens to nationalise the banks if they don't start lending to small businesses '

Why didn't he set up some terms and conditions before giving the banks £38Bn ? It's a lot of money to give away with no strings attached.
The banks need the money to cover the losses yet to come in the New Year.
Plus they have to pay back the loan at 12% while giving out loans at 2%. A bit imprudent I would have thought. Nearly as bad as their 125% loans to self certifying mortgage borrowers. Well maybe not that bad I suppose !
40

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/11/2008 13:16:20
You have to hand it to Sir Peter Burt.

The man has a complete brass neck.

It was he, as governor of the Bank of Scotland, that oversaw the merger with Halifax.

Bank of Scotland ceased being an independent bank the minute that merger happened.

He is the last person in the world I would want running HBOS.
41

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

21/11/2008 13:18:53
#39 There are strings attcached - it's just that the banks have not yet received the capital and so have no reason to take action yet.
42

Sumlogic,

A sinking ship 21/11/2008 13:44:53
I think as many do, reading between the lines that this so-called merger between the two banks has at its heart a desire by some to scupper the Scottish financial sector and provide bullets to be fired if and when a referendum is ever held...yes you can just see the posters now.

However I hope this backfires on 'them', as the general Scottish public watch the scale of job losses and damage unfold over the coming months, remembering I hope where to point the finger of blame...the Labore party...a party that have lied, cheated, run up huge debts, emptied the pockets of the general public through stealth taxes whilst the richest go tax free, helped in the death of tens of thousands of Iraqis.... to all those Labore voters...you should have your head examined!

Its no surprise really when you think about where the majority of the general public get their information regarding politics; rags that pretend to be News outlets!

Just think about how naive the average UK citizen is and think, half of them are likely even worse than that…then you understand why our political parties continue to get away with it!

Once again the people of Scotland let themselves down fighting and arguing over ‘scraps’ thrown their way by Westminster!
43

Memyself&I,

21/11/2008 13:47:05
#21 errrr, why?
44

notime4anovice,

glasgow 21/11/2008 14:00:20
#41

If there are strings attached to the bailout loans then why is Darling threatening to legislate to free up credit ?
Why is McFall threatening them with nationalisation ?
Why will there be ' extra help for businesses' in the pre budget report ?
Why did Angela Knight of the British Bankers Association say on Radio 4 that the bailout money was to absorb losses ?
45

English flag,

21/11/2008 14:08:37
36. The latest yougov poll showed 52% in favour of staying in the union.
46

brownlie,

21/11/2008 14:22:05
45 English Flag

Does not really sound like a massive majority, does it? Were dead people counted as for the union this time?
47

English flag,

21/11/2008 14:36:34
46. It's enough, pity you are so
blasé about life.
48

swatson,

Kirkcaldy 21/11/2008 14:53:59
It is scandalous that Hornby and Stevenson are still employed by HBOS They together with Mckillop and Godwin have overseen the collapse of two fantastic Scottish institution. You would think that they would at least resign. How can they turn up at work each day and look their employees in the eye. Completely outrageous.
49

swatson,

Kirkcaldy 21/11/2008 14:55:51
It is scandalous that Hornby and Stevenson are still employed by HBOS.Together with Mckillop and Godwin they have overseen the collapse of two fantastic Scottish institutions. You would think that they would at least resign. How can they turn up at work each day and look their employees in the eye. Completely outrageous.
50

Col. Blimp­IV*,

21/11/2008 15:14:25
#40 The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

He created a "Federalist" Bank...thought you would be chuffed.
51

Callum MacPherson,

Edinburgh 21/11/2008 15:19:52
Whether you are Unionist or Nationalist you must see this is bad news for Scotland:

Scottish jobs lost, one of the finest Scottish companies lost, a massive hq in Scotland lost, credit for Scottish companies compromised, competition in the Scottish and UK banking sector compromised, the Scottish economy ultimately, fundamentally damaged.

This is primarily the fault of the UK Labour Government. Yes the crisis is global but Brown etc has not only been complicit in the policies that have precipitated this situation but have encouraged them - massive borrowing, deregulation etc etc.

Nevertheless they are still in a position to make amends. The could use the money they intend for the Lloyds-TSB takeover of HBOS to recapitalise both companies separately. They have said themselves it would take roughly the same amount of money.

However they are not doing it.

The only reason I can think of for this is purely political. They must believe that the outcome will give them a stronger a position versus the SNP and Conservatives despite the fact that EVERY OTHER PERSON IN THIS COUNTRY WILL SUFFER AS A RESULT. This is not acceptable.

HBOS has made no more mistakes than any other bank. As the mortgage lender in Britain with the biggest share of the market they may have been more exposed to the collapse of the American sub-prime market, the disaster that caused this chain of events, but it would be totally unfair to see them go under these conditions.

If further powers were devolved to this Scottish SNP Government they would be able to borrow and have access to the IMF and World Bank and other sources and I'm sure they would try to save HBOS. However they don't, not yet.

That means it is up to the UK Labour Government to save HBOS from this fate, for the sake of the people who live and work in Scotland.
52

Callum MacPherson,

Edinburgh 21/11/2008 15:22:27
The best result for the people of Scotland and the UK would be for Burt and Mathewson to be given a chance at the helm with the money previously promised by Darling. I hope the HBOS shareholders are given that option when they vote, as they rightly should be.
53

the.ally ,

max. 21/11/2008 15:35:00
Hey 'G dundy', this is for you and that tiwat Sado the.masichist.

Dundee's awa hame.
by allymax.

A'm fae Dundee, an' a'm no tae blame,
I just live here, a dinnae ca' it hame.

It's dark, it's bleak, ra' best o' times,
It's even this dire when ra' sun-shines.

Ra' mills, ra' roads 'r landlocked firev'r,
Fifty years on, the gloom makes me quiver.

Crypt-like ogres fae Craigie tae Lochee,
Dark lit nights gives them presence to see.

Those ghostly shells once hardened oor souls,
We ca' it fight-minded, but we'r crypt-like ghouls.

Ra' mills n' pubs made us a' like this,
Moronic deferrence, tae fair-minded bliss.

The men 'r like wimun, gossip n' blame,
The wimun 'r like men, wi' mare o' ra' same.

A' cannae be here, it's getin' me doon,
Paranoid people in a desolate toon.

Nae place fir a man, that's fir sure,
Noo wimun 'r ladies, evin ra' hoor.

A'm gaen' quick, afore a'm ra' same,
I won't live here, an' a' dinnae ca' it hame.
54

Malcolm71,

21/11/2008 15:42:21
Callum is correct. This is a disaster for Scotland and Scottish jobs irrespective of your political views. In recent years a number of our biggest Scottish HQd organisations have gone (Scottish Power, S&N, HBOS, etc) and with it will go a large proportion of senior positions. For Scots that aspire to senior professional jobs it will be a case of move to London or live in Scotland be prepared to be on the red eye on Monday morning and back Friday night. Scotland faces the prospect of becoming a back office with low to mid paid jobs and very little else.

55

the.ally ,

max. 21/11/2008 15:48:38
Interesting to see all the so-called 'unionists' coming on these forums and gloating about the 'reported' demise of HBoS. Like a few honest and decent posters have already said, the gemm'es no' finished 'til the man in black bla's the whistle. Seems to me you too happy unionists are actually employed by the New Labour party to put chaos on these boards so as to confuse the article thread issues. I've not seen one unionist post that hasn't resorted to low-down dirty-tricks policies; something of a New Labour phenomenon.

Roll-up, Roll-up, Roll-up for the best new washing powder ever to be invented. This washing powder will wash any stain away that you want it to. Just put the stain in the 'machine', tip in the New Labour stain remover powder called 'deflect-deceive-deny', and when the spin-cycle has finished your stain has been eradicated. Roll-up, Roll-up, Roll-up for Tony Bliar's new labour stain-washing, stress-saving, universal magic powder; USE 'DEFLECT-DECEIVE-DENY' AND WATCH YOUR PAST PROBLEMS DISAPPEAR. iT'S S A NEW LABOUR SAVING DEVICE.
56

Roseblue,

London 21/11/2008 16:03:58
Even the English no longer want to be part of the Union we want Scotland to have it's Independence as England has become very passionate about itself over the last few years, but I fear this has put Independence for Scotland back many years.
57

Jacqueline Hyde ,

On the shelf 21/11/2008 16:05:36
For fifteen years, Brown has been telling us that the effects on the UK of the world recession in the early nineties were the fault of the then UK Government. Now, apparently, the effects on the UK of the current world recession are the fault of the Americans, Russians, Icelandics, Chinese and just about everyone in the world except the UK Government. Surely New Labour's own brand of wisnae-me politics is starting to look a little bit tired.
58

Chris Mitchell,

Edinburgh 21/11/2008 16:10:26
Oh well I guess that the end of HBOS, its a shame, Callum and Malcolm are right this is a disaster for Scotland.
HBOS on its own is just the tip of the iceberg, RBS are likely to start laying people off as the new management team cut costs and operations although RBS is not going to be going anywhere.

Its a sad day but its been coming, we can only hope that another bid emerges but with just over 2 weeks until HBOS vote I can't see anything happening but the merger.

Scotlands Banking sector is in ruins, the loss of HBOS to not only Edinburgh but Scotland is sad and I hope that Labour are severly punished at the next General Election.
Alex Salmond knew that the Treasury were not going to cave in and would push through the Lloyds deal, he's tried to fight for HBOS jobs and Scottish pride but we lose another company to a foreign state.

If we were independent the Executive would have the power to convince companies to stay in Scotland, lets this union is not helping us, the Scottish MPs save the SNP are doing nothing to help Scotland.
59

Roseblue,

London 21/11/2008 16:16:04
Alex Salmond did nothing he never even opened his mouth when the Banking crisis was on were was he and I think it also shows that Alex Salmond is not as powerful as he thinks he is in fact he is now very weak.
60

Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 21/11/2008 16:16:09
Cometh the hour, cometh the man. I anticipate a delegation of bewildered top Scottish bankers approaching Rufus T Firefly. He has proved consistently in these columns that he is the only person with the fiscal skills and knowledge to save the Scottish banking industry.
61

Roseblue,

London 21/11/2008 16:26:06
#60 There is nothing of the Scottish banking industry to save anymore.
62

Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 21/11/2008 16:30:58
60# Roseblue, I hope Birmingham Midshires are still going, they have got my dosh.
63

brownlie,

21/11/2008 16:31:08
60 Son of....

You have just made sm753 a very unhappy individual!
64

Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 21/11/2008 16:35:09
63# Brownlie, whose sm753, sounds like a strain of bird flue.
65

sm753,

21/11/2008 16:37:02
51

"The could use the money they intend for the Lloyds-TSB takeover of HBOS to recapitalise both companies separately. They have said themselves it would take roughly the same amount of money.

However they are not doing it."

58

"HBOS on its own is just the tip of the iceberg, RBS are likely to start laying people off as the new management team cut costs and operations although RBS is not going to be going anywhere."

Well this is neat. 58 has just answered 51, although I suspect neither of them realise it.

If HBOS were to be capitalised on its own it would not only need *at least* £500m more of *our* money, it would be 70+% state-owned. In effect, nationalised to an even greater extent than RBS.

And RBS is cutting back numbers, just as Northern Rock and B&B are having to. And so would a state-owned "independent" HBOS.

Because the state (that's us, BTW) cannot afford to keep bankers in state-subsidised jobs just for the fun of it. More than that, it would be *immoral* to do that because it would be taking business and jobs away from those banks who managed not to make such an almighty mess of things: like HSBC, Clydesdale, Nationwide and so on.

So would folks please can the cheap histrionics and the paranoid conspiracy theories. This is not a good outcome, but it is probably the least bad one.
66

sm753,

21/11/2008 16:37:32
66

Timing!
67

sm753,

21/11/2008 16:47:40
53 Wally

Thanks for that.

You have a talent - are you published?

But the worldview in those lines is a bit old, and godawful depressing. The city of pehs isn't *that* bad. (Good pehs, to start with.)

How about something on the world-class biotech cluster which the Uni is building up?

Or the fact that the place is actually in one of the prettiest locations you could imagine? (It's just that all the architects who have had anything to do with building anything in Dundee since around 1950 need to be hunted down and exterminated. Slowly.)

Or how about a couple of verses on my neck of the woods, Broughty Ferry? (No, I'm not descended from jute barons. One of my grandfathers worked on the boats.)
68

JoeMiddleton,

Edinburgh 21/11/2008 16:52:14
This shows what happens when you share a Government with a country ten times your size.
69

sm753,

21/11/2008 17:28:21
68

Yes.

You get a say in the House of Commons larger than your population would dictate, devolved home rule government and over-representation in Cabinet, including the two highest posts of all.
70

It's me!,

21/11/2008 17:38:33
Well, that's it then. Brown and Darling think they have put the SNP in their place. (Remember how the delegates punched the air at the Labour conference when they heard that HBOS is to be taken over) They think they have ..... until the next election when they are out on their ears.
71

Union is ­Best,

21/11/2008 17:50:21
69 AM-SM 752

Word from the wise. When you write "you" referring to Scots, it makes you sound not Scottish old bean.

I thought part of our strategy was to "be" Scottish on here?

PS - disgraceful that you and Churchill got deleted for your sectarian posts yesterday.
72

Union is ­Best,

21/11/2008 18:01:52
70. So what? Some Labour MPs punched the air and celebrated the news that one of Scotland's biggest employers was in difficulty.

Jeez, get over it
73

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21/11/2008 18:12:24
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74

brownlie,

21/11/2008 18:30:06
72 Union is Best

"get over it" sounds suspiciously like an AM2ism - did he do the briefing this morning?
75

the.ally ,

max. 21/11/2008 18:45:09
Sado; here's on for you.

Yer Fae Dundee.
By allymax Z008.

So wit'v ye done, wha the fok 'r we,
Wit wid ye ca' yersel if yer fae dundee.

Wha's like us, 'av we done any good,
No me, ma pals, nor neds fae ra' hood.

Whit does it mean tae come fae Dundee,
Are we a'-right, or can we no see.

Nothing grows, it's a' ra' same,
Apathetic lemmings, are we so lame.

Twa uni's, biology thing, 'n college o' art,
Yi'd think wir dain' gid things; no just a phart.

Seems tae me, 'n a'm no ra' man,
There's us and them; we do what we can.

There's the elite, 'n no fae ra' schemes,
Royal society, roundtable, 'n a' re's themes.

Plying ra' masses wi, pretentions more,
Setting themselves up, wi' ra' Ferry tae score.

No just ra' Ferry o' Douglas kind,
These tiwats o' ra' Ferry 'r no of a mind.

But ra' Ferry o' royal 'n roundtable lore,
For ra' masses, wi' money, will not come to fore.

So wit'v ye done, if yer fae Dundee,
Nothing probably, yer fodder ye see.

all rights reserved.
allymax.
76

the.ally ,

max. 21/11/2008 18:50:29
Hugh #73, what a belter.

I can see this forum is going to a barrel of laughs now.
77

Col. Blimp­IV*,

21/11/2008 18:51:14
#69 sm753

"You get a say in the House of Commons larger than your population would dictate"

So roughly speaking You English get an 80% say in how your country is Governed, We Scots get a 10% say and the diddy countries get 5% each.

No wonder the Unionists claim "British" as their nationality...The shame attached to a being non-English, willing participant in this abomination would be unbearable.
78

sm753,

21/11/2008 18:56:37
75

"So wit'v ye done, if yer fae Dundee,
Nothing probably, yer fodder ye see."

That seems to be your problem, Wally.

I've done, achieved and earned plenty.
79

JayDeeTee,

21/11/2008 18:57:59
#29 - English Flag. You still have not answered my question in post 35 which leads me to the conclusion that you are a mealy mouthed inventor of facts. You claim in post 29 that you "tell it as it is". I put it to you that you clearly tell it as it isn't. My tip to you is do not make up facts you cannot substantiate to back an argument you cannot prove. There's facts and there's wishful thinking. The smart man has more of the first than the second.
80

sm753,

21/11/2008 19:03:08
77

"So roughly speaking You English get an 80% say in how your country is Governed, We Scots get a 10% say and the diddy countries get 5% each."

The country, and the parliament, does not vote along national lines.

Do we hear Texans whining about getting President Obama, despite voting for McCain?

Did we hear Bavarians whining about getting Chancellor Schroeder, despite voting CSU?

Grow up and deal with it. It's called "democracy".
81

sm753,

21/11/2008 19:08:39
70

"Remember how the delegates punched the air "

Interesting to watch the birth of a myth from biased and frankly poor journalism.

This has all come from one story by the card-carrying Nat MacWhirter.

And the quote was "practically punching the air".

How does one do this?

Is it like Peter Sellers as Dr Strangelove, with one arm jerking skywards before being restrained and pulled downwards by the other one?

Or does it all come from the imagination of a biased journalist?
82

,

21/11/2008 19:10:16
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83

English flag,

21/11/2008 19:11:51
79. So,you think i'm wrong,tell you what if HBOS is not taken over by Lloyds TSB,and scotland gains independence within 30yrs i'll give you £50,can you say the same!
84

the.ally ,

max. 21/11/2008 19:12:39
Hugh, another belter.

I wiz gonnae say that but he's blockin' ma computer again.
85

,

21/11/2008 19:13:38
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86

,

21/11/2008 19:14:22
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87

Union is ­Best,

21/11/2008 19:14:59
83. Nice one Rufus. Think you have thrown them off the trail of your sick obsessive posting 24/7 with that one! Good job!
88

English flag,

21/11/2008 19:18:16
85.LOL, I here nobody is left to print scottish bank notes,in any case it's not legal tender anyway.
89

the.ally ,

max. 21/11/2008 19:19:13
Onion is best, you said, "69 AM-SM 752 Word from the wise. When you write "you" referring to Scots, it makes you sound not Scottish old bean. I thought part of our strategy was to "be" Scottish on here?
PS - disgraceful that you and Churchill got deleted for your sectarian posts yesterday."

Are we, (all on this forum), to deduct that you both are not Scottish?
And, your 'strategy' is to 'be Scottish on here'. Hmmm, What's with all the cloak and dagger stuff, old bean? Why don't you both come right and say your Onions?
Last but not least; you said, "disgraceful that you and Churchill got deleted for your sectarian posts yesterday."

what actually was 'disgraceful'?
Was it the fact Chorcull and Sado's posts were removed for neing rascist, or is their posts that were disgraceful?
You really need to clarify your situation onion; come on old bean, do tell all.
90

English flag,

21/11/2008 19:19:40
87.Who the hell is Rufus!
91

,

21/11/2008 19:20:15
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92

the.ally ,

max. 21/11/2008 19:20:54
Hugh, no, I'm the real allymax.

And yes, from the Herald.

The Herald has gone overboard with their moderating recently; it's nae fun ony-more.
93

,

21/11/2008 19:21:27
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94

English flag,

21/11/2008 19:21:58
91.Hmm ofcourse it will,not!
95

,

21/11/2008 19:23:54
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96

,

21/11/2008 19:24:15
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