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Brought to their knees in £31.5bn rescue deal - but Wall Street enjoys record bounce



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Published Date: 14 October 2008
SCOTLAND'S once-great banking industry was left denuded and humbled yesterday, after being forced to accept the biggest financial rescue package in British history.
The sombre attitude was in stark contrast to the scenes of near jubilation on Wall Street as traders saw the Dow Jones industrials record its biggest-ever one-day points gain as it soared 936 points, or 11.08 per cent.

However, in Scotland the unprecedented £31.5 billion government emergency refinancing deal now means RBS and HBOS have been stripped of their independence, at least in the short term. The banks will now have to answer to the government – which is about to take massive shareholdings in both institutions. Treasury appointees will sit on the boards, and the banks have been banned from awarding director bonuses for two years. The banks have also been told to adopt a new approach to mortgage lending, and both have accepted the loss of senior boardroom figures.

Sir George Mathewson, the former chairman of RBS, said: "I am confident the banks will pick up eventually, but we are looking at a dire economic situation just now. This is the direst and worst day for a long time. It is difficult to take a view from within the darkness."

And financial analyst Alastair Cumming, investment manager at Barclays Wealth in Glasgow, said jobs could go south as a result of the deal. He added: "If the decision-making goes south, it will damage the quality of Edinburgh's authority (as a financial market]."

The London stock market reacted extremely positively to the bank bail-out, rising 8 per cent and wiping out the losses suffered in last Friday's falls. The major European bourses were even more buoyant after yesterday's deal.

However, it was Wall Street that experienced the biggest bounce, with the Dow Jones industrials recording its largest-ever one-day points gain as it rocketed an unprecedented 936 points, or 11.08 per cent – its biggest one-day percentage gain since 15 March, 1933.

John Lynch, the chief market analyst for Evergreen Investments in Charlotte, North Carolina, said the rally was encouraging, but admitted doubts that it signalled the worst had passed.

He added: "I'm not doing any backflips yet. We still have many challenges up ahead."

Bank shares, however, did not follow that trend. HBOS closed down 27.5 per cent, Lloyds TSB was 14.5 per cent lower and RBS down 8.4 per cent – falls almost certainly linked to the deal which means that the banks will not be paying dividends to their shareholders.

Barclays said it was not turning to the government for emergency funding, announcing, instead, plans to raise more than £6.5 billion from investors to help shore up its balance sheet.

The high-street bank also said it would not pay a final dividend for 2008, saving the group £2 billion.

John Varley, Barclays' chief executive, warned that rival banks in need of government capital injections would be "constrained in their strategic and operational flexibility". Barclays' shares rose 5 per cent yesterday.

HSBC, the UK's other major banking group, has already announced separate capital-raising measures to bolster its UK operation. Its shares improved by 6 per cent yesterday.

The Prime Minister's message was clear when he outlined the rescue package yesterday – there was to be an end to the days of overblown City salaries.

There will be no boardroom bonuses in the current year and future rewards will be tied to performance, with bonuses next year paid in shares, not in cash. Nor will they pay out any dividends until the government's interest in preference shares has been fully repaid.

"Our action is driven by our values," Gordon Brown said. "For this government, and I believe the whole country, the guiding idea is fair reward for hard work, effort and enterprise, not incentives for irresponsibility or excessive risk-taking for which the rest of us have paid."

Bryan Johnston, the director of Bell Lawrie and a financial analyst, said: "As far as the culture of these banks is concerned, there may be a different view on risk, there may a drive to get back to mainstream banking. I do not expect a great rash of redundancies."

But the Conservative leader, David Cameron, said the package was "painful and expensive" and represented "the day that the bills came in for a decade of too much borrowing".

Under the plan, £5 billion will be injected into RBS by the Treasury, with a £15 billion share issue by the bank also guaranteed by the government.

Lloyds TSB and its proposed new partner, HBOS, will receive up to £17 billion of emergency funding, while the price Lloyds TSB is paying for its rival is also being lowered.

Yesterday, the takeover of HBOS by Lloyds was still on, despite criticism from some Scottish politicians who argued the part-nationalisation of HBOS took away the need for any merger.

As expected, the RBS chief executive, Sir Fred Goodwin – is being replaced by Stephen Hester, the chief executive of British Land. The chairman, Sir Tom McKillop, will retire from the board next April. HBOS chief executive Andy Hornby and chairman Dennis Stevenson are also to step aside.

Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, said the men had waived their contractual entitlements, worth an estimated £2 million for Sir Fred and nearly £1 million for Mr Hornby.


Treasury controls extend to the board

FROM Treasury appointments at board meetings to direction on lending strategy, Britain's banks are expected to give up a great deal of independence by accepting a bail-out from the government.

The government will be able to decide on up to three non-executive directors at RBS and two at the group formed from the merger of Lloyds TSB and Halifax Bank of Scotland. The directors are a stiffer requirement than banking sources had privately expected.

RBS insisted yesterday that the new board members would be chosen in consultation with the government, rather than being direct appointments. However, it appears the Treasury could simply veto candidates until it gets its way.

Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, said the controls were "arms length" and the government would not be taking an active role in decision making. But experts warned the control of the state would extend to banking strategy.

Hamish Rutherford

The full article contains 1065 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/10/2008 00:10:49
Thanks are due to alistair Darling and Gordon Brown for saving the 2 Scottish Banks and in turn the Scottish Economy along with tens of thousands of jobs.
2

Jock 1O7,

14/10/2008 00:42:15
1 Rufus

This is no time for gratitude. And before the nationalists wake up, it's no time for yer yah boo comments. It's time to rebuild, and quickly.
3

Bring it Off,

UK 14/10/2008 00:53:24
"I will not allow house prices to get out of control and put at risk the sustainability of the recovery."
Gordon Brown's 1997 Budget Statement

"Under this Government, Britain will not return to the boom and bust of the past."
Pre-Budget Report, 9th November 1999

"Britain does not want a return to boom and bust."
Budget Statement, 21 March 2000

"So our approach is to reject the old vicious circle of the...the old boom and bust."
Pre-Budget Report, 8 November 2000

"Mr Deputy Speaker we will not return to boom and bust."
Budget Statement, 7 March 2001

"As I have said before Mr Deputy Speaker: No return to boom and bust."
Budget Statement, 22 March 2006

"And we will never return to the old boom and bust."
Budget Statement, 21 March 2007

THANK GOODNESS FOR GORDONS VISION
4

S'me,

Edinburgh 14/10/2008 01:00:19
The ideal team in times like this.
5

The Strategist,

14/10/2008 01:00:53
If you drive a car off a cliff into the sea you have two choices. Stay in it and drown or kick out the window and get out. There is no third choice... All Brown has done is take the most obvious choice but lets not forget shall we that it was Brown driving the car!
6

Corrennie,

14/10/2008 01:28:56
How much must Saldond be hating all this. The Westminster Government saving feckless Scottish intitutions from disaster while he is a bleating irrelevence on the sidelines.

Meanwhile, one of his MSP gripes on about having the bones of Mary, Queen of Scots, 'repatriated' from Westminster to Scotland.

Shows everyone where the SNP true priorities lie. Fiddling while Rome burns etc, etc.
7

Graeme Thomson,

Glasgow 14/10/2008 01:33:01
The Labour Party used to believe that unfettered capitalism was the scourge of the working person and that only the state and trade unions could counteract and constrain the unfairness and long-term irrationality of free markets.

New Labour and Gordon Brown embraced the fundamentalist free market ideology inherited from Margaret Thatcher and the monetraist Chicago school of thought.

Markets were deregulated to a greater extent than uner the Tories.

Brown even went around Europe telling other nations to follow his example by further de-regulating the financial markets.

So now he is the hero? For going back to Labour's roots and promulgating state intervention to cure the madness of the markets.

Hopefully he will now realise spending billions of pounds on new nuclear weapons isn't exactly in keeping with his return to Labour orthodoxy.

Nor is invading and occupying Iraq.

If Gordon Brown is returning to his roots then that can only be a good thing.

But he should be castigated for deserting them in the first place rather than lauded for finally being true to himself.


8

Huntly loon,

Aberdeenshire 14/10/2008 02:05:10
I find it bizarre the Unionist's comments that Salmond having once been an economist with the Royal Bank of Scotland is thus tainted by association with the bank, now that its has been bailed out and 60% of its shares taken over by the UK government. Salmond has not been employed by RBS since 1987 (had to check on Wikipedia) but what might be relevant is thgat in his time there it did not go t*ts up.

The economic and financial control of this country has since 1997 been in the hands of Gordon Brown, who has, along with those in power in the United States allowed unfettered debt to fuel an unsustainable housing and credit bubble and managed to bring the whole banking system of the western world to its knees and has had to borrow from those whose economies are still sound (the Chinese)under the guise that it is 'taxpayers' money to bail the banks out.

Not only will the real economy descend into recession if not depression, the taxpayers will be saddled with this borrowings for many years to come. The government hopes that in a few years we will be able to sell off the bank shares at a profit and clear our debt. Let us hope their judgement is sound. Upto now it has been seriously flawed.
9

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 14/10/2008 04:29:28
This is not time to be patting Brown on the back he has presided over this mess from start to finish - a total lack of prudence.

I was under the impression that Northern Rock got 75million - wouldn't that be the largest investment by government?.

You just can't trust a word printed in this (ahem)'newspaper'
10

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/10/2008 05:15:52
Can serving Prime Ministers receive knighthoods?

Sir Gordon Brown and Sir Alistair Darling are names that have a certain ring to them.

They have saved Scotland's 2 largest employers from bankruptcy.

Bankruptcy which would have been caused by a world economic crisis which was outwith our control.

The powerless, non-entity, Salmond can only look on from the sidelines, ready to scrounge with his begging bowl in one hand and a demand for Mary Queen Of Scots remains in the other..

The world is in financial meltdown and all the SNP care about is Mary Queen of Scots Bones.

11

Jimmy Le Pie,

14/10/2008 05:59:58
#10

I've read some drivel posted by unionists on this site but Rufus takes the biscuit.

Comrade Broon castigated the banks for 'moving £20bn of debts off the balance sheets' and insists that they be clearly seen on the balance sheet.

Sir Comrade Broon 'moved £35bn off the balance sheet' to hide the private finance initiative debt.

Will that debt be appearing on a balance sheet soon??
Bet you it doesn't??

Comrade Broon is a charlatan and a rogue. More like a 'snakeoil salesman' than a Statesman.

12

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 14/10/2008 06:07:31
Standing back a bit, doesn't this brouhaha have a Darwinian angle?

The traditions of caution and experience at the top has been replaced by whizz kids, bonuses, risk and above all inexperience.

I do hope that the Mr Mainwearings are returned to leadership, in much the same way and for similar reasons as Matrons are returning to clean up hospital guddles.

The cult of youth is an evolutionary dead end. The proof is all around you.
13

Pilrig,

Livingston 14/10/2008 06:09:39
1 Thanks ? FFS each and every one of us are up to oor necks to the tune of £18,000 after this. Thanks ? Looking forward to the tax rises and working till your dotage are you, Ruf ? Have a word with yourself.
14

Pilrig,

Livingston 14/10/2008 06:10:53
11 rufus is a closet nationalist.
15

Geoff,

sa 14/10/2008 06:29:17
I say-thanks GB and AD!

I've got a few bob in the RBS.
16

Geoff,

sa 14/10/2008 06:39:26
14 Pilrig is a closet Unionist! :)
17

PJ Walker,

East Lothian 14/10/2008 06:55:58
#6

Spot on !
18

ppink,

14/10/2008 07:20:12
I hear the sound of a cockk crowing

Tomorrow he'll be in the pot.
19

GalacticCannibal,

Murrieta CA .. for more WAR VOTE McCain 14/10/2008 07:34:36
Dudes , the one thing U bunch are top notch at, is squawking, and blaming everyone but Ur own misguided fanatical SNP .
U remind me of the fanatical and polarized red-neck GOP members here in the States.

That's all they do, is Blame and Attack. But sorry to say, in 2008 its not working for them, and the next US Pres. will be a liberal half cast American, Barack Obama.

Here in the US we are unique in that, when we fall down , we get up fast and move on. No time for squawking over spilt slurpees.

Meanwhile the stumbling geriatric McCain will fade right back into the bosom of his fanatical GOP.

Adios

GC
20

tommytommy,

14/10/2008 07:44:26
The Brown Plan.

The reality that small economies like Scotland cant function independently.

Nationalist economics are dead in the water.Nationalism has hit the rocks.

A subdued Alex Salmond asks the Govt at Wesminster for financial support.

Salmonds demeanour says it all.

Gordon Brown couldnt have engineered this if he had tried.

Brown comes out a candidate for a Nobel prize while Salmond looks like he needs a sleep.

Thats how it appears anyway.
21

Vote UKIP,

14/10/2008 07:57:28
Rescue for the Few, Debt Slavery for the Many

MICHAEL HUDSON
Counterpunch
Monday, Oct 13, 2008


http://www.prisonplanet.com/rescue-for-the-few-debt-slavery-for-the-many.html
22

Tynietiger,

14/10/2008 08:38:29
No praise from me for Gordon Brown as he was the man who steered us onto this iceberg in the first place.
23

SimonHurrll,

14/10/2008 08:47:42
Sounds like sour grapes from Barclays.
Perhaps now the Spivs and Hedge Funds will now drive a wedge into it and make it go bankrupt
24

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 14/10/2008 08:58:35
"SCOTLAND'S once-great banking industry was left denuded and humbled yesterday, after being forced to accept the biggest financial rescue package in British history."

Yes the union benefit indeed. They will be rescued in no small part by revenue taken in from North sea oil, Scottish income taxation Scottish business taxation Scottish NI contributions, Scottish road tax contributions and Scottish local taxation.
25

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 14/10/2008 09:01:19
6

The UK government played no small part in this global catastrophe with its blind support of the Iraq and Afgan wars which resulted in higher than ever oil prices and you want to go on about the bones of Mary Queen of Scots? like I said before troll it doesnt matter what logon you come on here with the sh*te you post smells exactly the same.
26

suchaparcelofrogues,

Scotland 14/10/2008 09:03:27
10

Yes Rufus 6 months we know youre a moron there is absolutely no need to label the point every day.
27

Auld Twa,

Edinburgh 14/10/2008 09:05:16
What sort of independence could Scotland enjoy ?
The Norway Post this morning says that their government have provided £35 Billion in funds for their banks and investing £2 Billion in renewable energy in the next year.
We are stuck with Bungler Brown who saw fit to let the financial sector self regulate and Dithering Darling who put a full stop to the housing market by his delay in announcing what he was doing about stamp duty.
28

Dave Scott,

SCOTLAND 14/10/2008 09:12:55
Independence may, or may not, still be viable (if that's what people want) but now is not the time and it never has been in recent years.
If anything, we have had a fragility exposed which, had we been 'ourselves alone', would be leaving us in a much more parlous situation. Edinburgh is going to have to recover its capital status.
In the meantime we should be focusing more on the growth of a skilled labour force and finding new expressions and celebrations of Scottish culture in order to sustain our collective identity on something more substantial than historicism and anti-Westminsterism.
If Salmond is half the historian/economist he makes out to be then he will surely realise that, barring any (more) major world catastrophes, this will take the best part of a couple of generations to achieve. It's called building and growth - we are too fractured at present and calls to "national unity" in the present climate are either only emergency measures, the stoking of fear or the rallying call of those greedy for (more) power.
Much as though it pains me to broach this topic (being an Edinburgh man), perhaps the time has come (despite our upturned wee boat buildings) to consider Glasgow as a new future capital unless Edinburgh can get off its inflated idea of itself, and we as a nation stop playing at pretendy socialism and realise that some institutions are the backbone of a functioning society, and then start to re-learn how to sustain steady economic growth and reputation. Come back Bruce Patullo, the hucksters have ruined our once-fine institutions.
Humble Pie anyone?
29

Highland Mist,

14/10/2008 09:14:41
27, Darling must change the Stamp Duty rules to saise the threshhold further and then the SD rates have to be on a proper sliding scale.

Scotland must also drop the ridiculous, unnecessary and unwanted plan for Seller Surveys.

Immediately.
30

Edward,

14/10/2008 10:17:11
Thanks to Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling, the Scottish Banks are having to be ‘rescued’
What we should all be asking ourselves is this; Why did the Scottish Banks need rescuing in the first place?
If we take RBS, RBS has an asset worth in excess of one thousand BILLION pounds
(sometimes referred to as a Trillion) It did, prior to last weeks crash have reasonable availability to capital, so was not actually looking for capitalisation. It had a half year profit of five billion, which it used prudently to pay towards outstanding debt (and had a continuing plan to do so). So what is the difference between then and now – simply none, there is no difference apart from having its share value driven down through speculation.
Where did this speculation come from? Well we don’t have to look far and remember that we practically had a running commentary from the BBC’s Robert Peston as well as some other ‘well placed’ journalists. Who all seemed to really have their finger on the pulse. The reality is that Labour were pulling their strings (was tempted another analogy related to glove puppets!). Peston along with others were being briefed with information which was a mixture of here say and what can be described as market sensitive. At times Robert Peston would make a statement on TV and literally five minutes later the Treasury would make the exact same statement. Coincidence? Exceedingly astute journalism? or just plainly being fed by Labour!
Don’t take my word for it, the FT’s Alphaville blog was coming out clearly linking some leaking from Labour and the Treasury to Robert Peston (referred to as Pestwire on the blog). Then it became clearer on Sunday, when the Mail on Sunday ran with the story on how Peston was providing damaging information, which was primarily aimed at the Scottish Banks and specifically RBS. Turns out Peston is close friend of Schools Secretary Ed Balls, one of Gordon Brown’s closest confidants as well as John Kingman, the Treasury’s Second Perman
31

Edward,

14/10/2008 10:17:49
(continued)
Turns out Peston is close friend of Schools Secretary Ed Balls, one of Gordon Brown’s closest confidants as well as John Kingman, the Treasury’s Second Permanent Secretary.
Even today the media are singling out Fred Goodwin as the villian of the peace (listen and watch news reports and see how many times his name is mentioned).
Dirty tricks? Who knows, but consider the following : Gordon Brown ‘I will do what ever it takes to keep the union’ Who has rejoined the Labour ‘team’? Peter (now Lord) Mandelson and the spin meister Alistair Campbell, the expert at turning a ‘situation’ around to help Labour (Credit Crunch – World Financial Crisis – lets have a run on Bank Stock especially Scottish Bank Stock)
32

Suomi,

Salo,Finland 14/10/2008 10:18:20
Interesting spin by poster #20 and some others on this site.Lets address some of the points.

1)The suggestion that small economies like Scotland can't function independantly does not fit with the facts.For example Finland (same population as Scotland) has no Banking crisis.Some of the side effects of global crisis will arrive here but Banks are stable and quality of life is high.

2) If the economics of nationalism are dead in the water,then I assume that there will no longer be any independant nations?Some of the largest nation states are in deep trouble(eg USA and UK) and Iceland has been predicted by the London School of Exconomics to have a good economic future in the long term since it has a lot of resources and an educated population.In fact it is likely to ride out a crisis caused by their Banks overstretching themselves rather better than the UK.

3)Alec Salmond is not begging for support.He is rightly aasking for some more of Scotlands own money to be returned in order to grow the Scottiush economy faster.In that way jobs can be created and people are enabled to pay their home loans etc.Everyone should be supporting that.

4)Gordon Brown encouraged the Banking Practices that caused the collapse of Banks and the turmoil in the stock marketets.Suggesting that he should get a Nobel Proze is somewhat like saying that a person who suggests a cure for a disease that he gave to you,should be rewarded.What is coming the way of the UK is increasing unemployment,collapsing property values,and increased taxation to pay for the loans from China.Trying to buy your way out of debt by incurring further debt is likely to lead to further misery.This is not something to be celebrate and those who contributed to this situation do not deserve a Nobel prize.If anything this crisis has highlighted the urgent need for independance,or at least greater powers for the Scottish Parliament in several areas,including fiscal control.Our First Minister has the ability,but the p
33

Edward,

14/10/2008 10:20:24
Another inaccuracy pervading the media, especially with a pro labour stance, is that the Government have only given RBS £ 5 billion in capital, not £ 20 billion.
RBS are to raise £ 15 billion on a share offer, which is guaranteed by the government
34

Ronaldo Stuffed Everyone,

14/10/2008 10:25:20
#27 Despite the Brigadoonish drivel from the SNP, the facts are simple. Brown and Darling have saved our two largest financial institutions.
Blaming Brown for the financial crisis which is clearly global, is utterly preposterous.
35

Turkey Jerky,

14/10/2008 10:31:17
This is a joke. The government bought preference shares. They don't have ANY say in the banks whatsoever. They have NO voting rights as a shareholder.

this means that control of the bank has actually been reduced down to fewer more powerful shareholders.

this removes some incentive for the banks to show profit and encourages the senior executives to drain what profits are created with HUGE bonuses. And we the people and governemtn have NO SAY in this whatsoever.

Yay.... Big win.
36

Edward,

14/10/2008 10:31:32
#34 Ronaldo
I dont think anyone is blaming Brown for the World financial crisis. I think everyone is agreed that that stemmed from the US, with the Sub Prime Market in the US collapsing. What Brown and Darling are to blame for is not controlling the economy in the UK better. In fact they have been negligent in not doing there job right. As for the share price crash on specifically the Scottish Banks, that is laid squarely at Gordon Brown and the Labour party in manipulating tghe markets for political gain.
The FSA will investigate, allthough not expected to do so until Labour are kicked out
37

Edward,

14/10/2008 10:35:30
#35
Think you'll find that the Government does have a say at board level. £ 5 Billion gives you a lot of say under normal circumstances. Being preferential shares, means that they will get a better return as aposed to normal shareholders, who will not be receiving any dividends, while the government hold the preferential shares. The bank will be paying back the £ 5 billion and when that is done, the government will not have a share in the bank
38

Alternative (High-Octane) Fuel Head,

Edinburgh 14/10/2008 10:40:11
At the end of the day, this is nothing whatsoever to do with nationalism or unionism. It is to do with the incometent handling of the economy by Brown and him kidding the British public on that the "growth" he was talking about was in reality "rising debt".

It doesn't matter how many fancy financial deals are done behind the scenes that give the impression that a profit is being made, on simple, incontraverable fact remains---if a financial institution lends out all of its capital (and far more besides), then the value of the collateral put up against those loans drops, there is going to be trouble.

Brown could have sorted this by the simple matter of regulating the housing market, then regulating the dodgy financial dealings which led to this. I said exactly the same thing on these pages about 3 years ago and I was laughed at. Who is laughing now?
39

famous 15,

Edinburgh 14/10/2008 10:46:19
What is the difference between Butch Cassidy and Alistair Darling. Butch Cassidy wore a mask!
40

Edward,

14/10/2008 10:49:37
Gordon Brown Qualifications : PhD in History and spent time as a Journalist (allegedly)

Alistair Darling Qualifications : Lawyer(failed), Advocate(failed), Town Councillor in charfge of Edinburgh Buses (failed)

You go figure how were in the present state of affairs
41

Turkey Jerky,

14/10/2008 11:12:40
Edward @ 37

The government has no board members, and the board members are elected by VOTING shareholders.

You are mistaken. The preferential shares are not paid at a higher rate than normal ones. They are paid FIRST in event of foreclosure, that is all. They are top of the debtors list.

The government has NO control on how the bank is run.

As I said none of this provides incentive for the banks to be especially profitable.
42

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 14/10/2008 11:12:53
36 Edward
"As for the share price crash on specifically the Scottish Banks, that is laid squarely at Gordon Brown and the Labour party in manipulating tghe markets for political gain"

Please tell us how they managed to achieve this.
43

birdman,

edinburgh 14/10/2008 11:19:00
if this IS a bank RESCUE package, why is HBOS being taken over still.
44

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 14/10/2008 11:25:06
So much for the Union Divident, Scottish Banks going to the wall under a Unionist Government. Now Joe Public can look forward to more tax rises and cuts in Public Services. Oh and this doesn't even include all the trumpeted PFI schemes Nulabour haven't even put on the books but we' yep you and me have still to pay for
45

birdman,

edinburgh 14/10/2008 11:51:02
47

whats the difference between HBOS and Northern Rock.
46

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 14/10/2008 12:00:47
Boing, boing, boing.

It may be smooth-sailing now but I foresee an extended period when all world financial markets will go up and down and up and down and up and down...


Blame this ALL on STOOOPID George W. BabyBush and his stooopid Cabinet and the ar8e-licking lackeys on Wall Street who were foolish enough to listen to this rapidly ageing buffoon.
47

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 14/10/2008 12:08:49
I filled in a survey for this rag yesterday.

One of the later questions asks which "region" of the UK I live in. According to the Scotsman, Scotland is a region.

And the Regionman wonders why their sales are in sharp decline !
48

Big T,

14/10/2008 12:44:10
So Fred has walked away from his contractural entitlement has he! What a hero!

Never mind he still has a pension of well over £500m PER YEAR to fall back on!

DISGUSTING!!!
49

ThomasP,

14/10/2008 13:20:08
#51

HBOS shareholders are not benefiting either. Everything the Gov has recently bought are later able to benefit the Gov rather then shareholders.
50

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 14/10/2008 13:24:39
Denuded and humbled - just like Alex Salmond.
51

dude,

wishaw 14/10/2008 13:37:45
Could someone tell me where i can get hold of some of these shares, i mean they are to be sold for about 50p each on a business with 1Trillion pounds assets sounds like a great investment to me, ive got a few hundred lying around in cash i could make at least 10x my money.

Now if i can work that out for myself having never bought a share in my life i dont think there will be much left over from 15 billion for the calamity twins to buy dont you think
52

dude,

wishaw 14/10/2008 13:39:34
54 patrick O'Reilly, coatbridge 14/10/2008 13:24:39

Denuded and humbled - just like Alex Salmond.

dont think so mate, i think Alex Salmond has come out this better than he went in, remember it was his ideas that the calamity twins used, the mans a genius
53

Arfur,

14/10/2008 13:40:04
I tell you, is every single newspaper and news program on the Labour payroll?

It is being blasted everywhere that the gov will own 60% of RBS - this is just not the case. They will own £5bn preference shares which the bank will look to pay back as soon as possible and they have UNDERWRITTEN £15bn at 65.5p. This means the shares that are not bought by shareholders and independent investors will be bought by the gov. Now this 65.5p will probably have a discount of say 10% meaning investors and shareholders will have an option price of around 71p. Shares are already creeping up to this price and by the time of the issue will be over this. RBS had a share issue a couple of months ago of which 98% of shareholders paid in and rose £12bn. There will always be shareholders who will buy to keep the bank alive and there will be those that will spot an investment opportunity. But lets say they raise half of what they raised before and got new investors of £2/3bn (Scottish business men that Salmond talked to re HBOS)This leaves £6bn of shares to the gov as well as their £5bn (which will be paid back) giving them a share %age of about 20% which will reduce to 10%. Not the doom and gloom in the papers.

As for the tool Brown who got us into this mess - people are singing his praises for what he has done????? Eh what else was there to do you only have one option and that is give cash for shares, its hardly a brainwave, rest of Europe following his footsteps, ehhh again there is only one option to pick from so its not as if they have gone look what that clever cookie over there has done - the only thing he did was be the first to do it aaaannnddd there is a reason for that - cos we are in more of a mess than them.

I also note that the directors of the Scottish banks are being told to step down but the CE of the English bank is hunky dory.

Brown has also made one other error - lending has to go back to 2007 levels......but safer practise has to be shown???? How do you do
54

Arfur,

14/10/2008 13:40:43
cont -

Brown has also made one other error - lending has to go back to 2007 levels......but safer practise has to be shown???? How do you do that then??? There is 3 realistic options You continue to lend at 100/110% of property value (biggggg no no from the gov) or you reduce lending to say 80% value but increase numbers - only problem with that is that you have to reduce your scorecards to allow more risky customers who have a higher potential to go bad or you reduce to 80%, loaned to same population and miss the target set out in the t and c's of the agreement. Well done Brownie.
55

dude,

wishaw 14/10/2008 13:43:21
48 birdman, edinburgh 14/10/2008 11:51:02

47

whats the difference between HBOS and Northern Rock.

Eh! let me think HBOS is a scottish bank and Northern Rock is English do you see the difference now, it would not do for the calamity twins to be seen letting an English bank go down but a scottish bank thats a different story
56

dude,

wishaw 14/10/2008 13:48:10
Otherwise, "a period of silence from you would be welcome". (Attlee)

are you scolding me for stating the obvious, just you wait and see how this pans out, the 5Billion will be all that is put into RBS unless the calamity twins have another ace up there sleaves and get a buyer for that too. What a result that would be for the union eh! no scottish banks left, then it would be 'how can Scotland be independant without ever a bank, hahahaha'

yup its not over till the fat lady sings
57

dude,

wishaw 14/10/2008 14:01:38
so if it went down why is it still in business and up to their eyeballs in taxpayers bailout, how much was that exactly £75 billion and counting, seems like a drop in the ocean to £5 billion
58

dude,

wishaw 14/10/2008 14:02:33
also if the calamity twins had acted sooner and suspended share dealings in both banks this would not have happened, the union dividend indeed
59

dude,

wishaw 14/10/2008 14:11:12
hey the shareholders invested in a bank that was a shambles you ever heard of karma, now they have nothing its a tough old world out there, you know people are starving to death cause of this crisis and all the calamity twins care about is if they look good at the polls, brown was is up to his neck in this do you think he cares, if he can get one over on the nationalists do you think he would not grab it with both hands 'i will do whatever it takes to save the union' an old establishment mantra
60

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 14/10/2008 14:15:37
#63 sm

"Northern Rock DID "go down". That's what nationalisation at zero amounts to."

Claptrap. Northern Rock is still in business, ergo it did NOT "go down", irrespective of who owns it.
61

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 14/10/2008 14:17:48
#66 sm

you missed out the third option.

See if you ban work out what that was !

Take your time.
62

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/10/2008 14:27:20
Nobel Economics Prize winner lauds Brown as potential economic world saviour!!!

There you go Nats , no less than a Nobel Economics Prize winner is saying brown is a world saviour.

63

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/10/2008 14:27:48
The French newspaper LeMonde generally holds sceptical views of the UK.

But after Brown's weekend lecture to euro zone leaders urging them to embrace his model as a template for an international banking rescue plan, they hailed him as an economic "sorceror".
64

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/10/2008 14:29:39
"The raised magician" - How the French newspaper Le Journal du Dimanche described Prime Minister Gordon Brown as he tackles the financial crisis.
65

danbob,

14/10/2008 14:31:03
I fail to see how Brown is the real architect of the banks downfall. It's the banks directors who are to blame and nobody else. Not one politician would have introduced laws to prevent this credit madness whilst it was in full flow. It was an unstoppable train. Anybody who claims Salmond would have acted differently is not being honest with themselves. He had opportunitys to raise the issue but he went with the flow like every other.
66

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 14/10/2008 14:48:55
64 dude
"so if it went down why is it still in business and up to their eyeballs in taxpayers bailout, how much was that exactly £75 billion and counting, seems like a drop in the ocean to £5 billion"

Like so many others tou are confusing the two different types of funding provided by the govt for the banks.

The £75 billion for Northern Rock was not to purchase shares in the company. It was an injection of liquidity in the same way as people are talking about injections of up to £500bn into the other banks. This is, in effect money going round the banking system in loans which comes back to the govt.

The £5bn (or £15bn) for RBS is to buy shares in the company i.e. it is spending money to buy up part of the company. However the govt got ownership of Northern Rock for virtually nothing as it was bust.
67

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 14/10/2008 15:08:22
#70 rufus

snigger !
68

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 14/10/2008 15:12:04
#75 For HBOS there was a third option, recapitalised and NOT merged with another bank.
69

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 14/10/2008 15:14:00
75 sm753
"But some can't seem to acknowledge that, because it doesn't fit in to their weird, conspiracist view of the world."

Yes, unfortunately that does seem to be the case. It is quite excruciating to see how some people distort the details in a futile attempt to justify a claim or a perception of some anti-Scottish conspiracy.
70

Ugly George,

Edinburgh 14/10/2008 15:17:53
77 Connaughtboy
"For HBOS there was a third option, recapitalised and NOT merged with another bank"

Yes that may well have been another option. But it might well have cost more for the taxpayer.
71

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 14/10/2008 15:19:56
#79 true.
72

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 14/10/2008 15:21:14
#79 But I could argue that the Lloyds HBOS giant will be a worse deal for competition and the man/woman in the street.
73

Nellie,

Liverpool 14/10/2008 15:31:01
#3 Oh, come on. Be fair. He's not my favorite guy either (although I don't see anyone better waiting in the wings for PM right now) but he can't be blamed for a huge bucket of seriously bad lending coming out of the USA. NO one could have realised they were buying such seriously "damaged goods" as those appalling loans. It's unprecedented. If anyone is to blame, apart from the turds that lent the money in the first place, it's those 1980's politicians who fostered the "me, me and I" society that spawned a new breed of little selfish barstewards who care not a jot how their own actions may damage others. They are "outside" of society in their own selfish worlds, living up as best they can the Thatcher concept that said (I paraphrase),'there is no such thing as a society.'
74

Nevsky,

Moscow 14/10/2008 15:33:03
71 Rufus#

Here is the quotr from Le Monde:


Triomphe à l'anglaise : c'est Gordon Brown, celui qui empêcha Tony Blair d'adopter l'euro, qui introduit l'Eurogroupe. C'est lui, le magicien du social-libéralisme anglo-saxon, qui donne des leçons d'interventionnisme aux continentaux.

You will notice the phrases:

'triumph of the English' and the 'magician of anglo-saxon social-liberalism...

Proud son of Fife indeed!
75

Nevsky,

Moscow 14/10/2008 15:35:21
Rufus#

Rather different from your extrapolation as you managed to omit the funny English bits!
76

Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 14/10/2008 15:52:40
Yet another day of them and us, The treacherous English, the oppressed Scots. I am of the opinion that Scots Nationalist's and Unionist's would argue over the coulor of an orange. If being part of the Union is such a problem for some in Scotland, why dont Scots of both persuasion's demand this matter be tested, I know Ms Alexander was slated for her views, but I think Salmond should bring it on, and end this running sore.
77

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 14/10/2008 16:04:48
#85 Patience dear chap. Let's see Cameron installed in Downing Street first. 2010/11 is fine !
78

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 14/10/2008 16:11:56
#87 sm

Pure speculation on your part.
79

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/10/2008 16:16:11
Nevsky. Big Deal.

One newspaper says he is English! ITS THE END OF THE WORLD.

Does it really matter? Nevsky does it?

The point still remains the same.

The Nobel Peace prize winner does not think he is English.

But even if he did, so what??

You see, most people outside the Natz, could not give a jot as we are not xenophobic when it comes to our good friends south of the border.
80

,

14/10/2008 16:18:35
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
81

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 14/10/2008 16:20:04
#89 Rufus

You are nothing but a troll.

Away with you !
82

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/10/2008 16:37:34
#91 connaughtboy well if you dont want me on this forum and you dont like my posts, I will head over to the Herald website.

Errm, then again maybe not.

If you dont like me posting, HARD CHEESE!
83

inkster,

14/10/2008 16:42:23
This is from Paul Kruger's blog in the NYT

"Henry Paulson, September 23:

Some said we should just stick capital in the banks, take preferred stock in the banks. That’s what you do when you have failure. This is about success.

Me, September 21:

[S]houldn’t the public intervention also be at stage 2 — that is, shouldn’t it take the form of public injections of capital, in return for a stake in the upside?

Let’s not be railroaded into accepting an enormously expensive plan that doesn’t seem to address the real problem

I’m not claiming special insight here — a number of economists arrived at the same conclusion. What’s striking is the way Treasury misfired, yet again."

So Brown read Kruger, adopted HIS idea and claimed the credit, no pun intended, French irony noted.
84

Rufus T. Firefly,

14/10/2008 16:44:06
#90 connaughtboy

Your post was absolute dross.

Companies enter into merger discussions all the time, and the shares do not get suspended.

Did you just make that up to fit your argument?

What an idiot.

85

dude,

wishaw 14/10/2008 16:56:11
94
inkster,
14/10/2008 16:42:23
This is from Paul Kruger's blog in the NYT

"Henry Paulson, September 23:

Some said we should just stick capital in the banks, take preferred stock in the banks. That’s what you do when you have failure. This is about success.

Me, September 21:

[S]houldn’t the public intervention also be at stage 2 — that is, shouldn’t it take the form of public injections of capital, in return for a stake in the upside?

Let’s not be railroaded into accepting an enormously expensive plan that doesn’t seem to address the real problem

I’m not claiming special insight here — a number of economists arrived at the same conclusion. What’s striking is the way Treasury misfired, yet again."

So Brown read Kruger, adopted HIS idea and claimed the credit, no pun intended, French irony noted.


Lets not forget he also stole Alex Salmonds ideas as well, but because he is top of the pile he gets the credit, he will also get the credit for putting us there in the first place, and who in there right mind would give credit to the ither calamity twin Darling, what he knows about international finance you could write on an old fag packet, so someone else is pulling the strings on all of them, i wonder who?
86

dude,

wishaw 14/10/2008 16:58:26
rufus

what an idiot

what about the scandal with the BBC reported, getting insider info on the merger etc. they knew what was happening and the calamity twins dithered
87

dude,

wishaw 14/10/2008 16:59:33
the calamity twins dithered and the banks nearly went to the wall
88

dude,

wishaw 14/10/2008 17:02:51
and then he is heralded as the saviour of the world, just in time calamity, engineered to give calamity the bounce at the polls, nearly bringing down the worlds economy with his dithering, but now he is a hero, events dear boy events
89

Son of one of Stirlings finest,

Weston S Mare 14/10/2008 17:05:43
86# Dear Mr Connaughtboy, I can as be patient as you suggest, my life in England want change greatly whatever happens to Scotland. In my opinion Scotland does not need another 2 yrs of of this tripe. All the polls clearly show that Independence is not desired by the majority of Scots. It is commendable to be passionate about ones country, but with that comes responsibility,and Mr Salmond may learn this the hard way.Derek Hatton was