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Vexed issue of MSPs' expenses set to tax Holyrood again



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Published Date: 02 June 2008
AN ISSUE that focuses the mind of almost all MSPs and causes more furrowed brows, hand- wringing and heated arguments in corridors than anything else will be back on the agenda next week. Expenses.
MSPs will have to decide how many, if any, of the recommendations produced in the report from the review led by Sir Alan Langlands into their allowances (as they prefer to term them) they will accept.

Expenses are very dear to the heart of most MS
Ps, although few like to admit it and less like to talk about them. But such is the trepidation surrounding the decision that it has already been delayed a week to allow the party groups to meet.

The most contentious payment was the Edinburgh Accommodation Allowance, worth up to £11,400 a year, which was used by many MSPs, who lived outwith travelling distance from Holyrood, to invest in the Edinburgh housing market by paying the interest on mortgages.

I understand that, however much it grieves many of the MSPs who hail from the far- flung reaches of the country and will now have to sell up if they get re-elected, the recommendation that the allowance should only be used for rent will get through.

Some argue rent is higher than mortgage interest but they know they've lost the moral argument.

There are still some who believe that the review should have been agreed immediately and not been farmed out to the party whips and managers. The argument goes that it is pointless to have an independent review and then change it.

I have been told that the Labour group will take this view and vote for the document in total with no alterations.

The Liberal Democrats appear to be confirming a few prejudices by pointing in both directions on it. So their current plan is to have a free vote.

However, it appears the SNP, the Conservatives, probably the Greens and maybe independent MSP Margo MacDonald will combine to force one significant alteration.

The likelihood is that they will overturn the recommendation that list MSPs should get less office support money than constituency ones – £45,000 compared to £62,000 per annum. They will simply even out the extra £1.25 million Sir Alan recommended should be paid on staff and office expenses.

The division is no coincidence – the SNP and Tories are predominantly made up of list MSPs and the two Greens and Margo MacDonald are list members, whereas Labour and the Lib Dems are mostly constituency members.

The SNP's 47 MSPs would get £2,421,000 a year compared to £2,699,000 for Labour's 46 MSPs.

And whatever it is meant for, a smaller pot of money undermines efforts of MSPs themselves and prepare for their real business of winning elections and seats.





The full article contains 477 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 01 June 2008 9:44 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Politicians' expenses
 
1

Angus Ogg,

01/06/2008 23:39:29

Some bright spark should consider starting a new political party....


The "NOT FOR PROFIT POLITICAL PARTY"


With the manifesto...

1. To Honour Promises Made To The Electorate.

2. To Behave Honestly.

3. To Work For Half The Current Outrageous Salary Greedy MP's and MSP's Have Awarded Themselves.

4. Not To Trough It With Expense Claims.

5. To Abolish The Nicol Stephen Style 2nd Mortgage Payment Bandwagon.

6. To Pass Legislation Removing The Ability of MP's and MSP's to Vote Their Own Pay and Expense Increases.

7. To Promise To Resign Immediately If Found Lying or Fiddling Expenses, Or Acting in a Way that Brings Parliament Into Disrepute.


That's just for starters.

Wonder if such a Political Party would get any votes ?
2

Resolutions,

02/06/2008 00:44:59
MSPs (and MPs) should not have to vote on their own salaries and allowances(expenses). This is an embarrasment which leads down all sorts of nasty roads. This should be decided by and be binding by,an independent body.

So saying, the Holyrood lot have a far more transparent system than Westminster.
3

Rob - Honest Toun,

02/06/2008 01:13:10
"MSPs (and MPs) should not have to vote on their own salaries and allowances(expenses). This is an embarrasment which leads down all sorts of nasty roads. This should be decided by and be binding by,an independent body."

Ay. An the independent body shuid be made up entirely o auld age pensioners.
4

,

02/06/2008 01:47:12
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
5

Mark Renton,

Edinburgh 02/06/2008 05:47:28
The job should be salary only, no expenses. And if you don't like the compensation, don't apply for the job.
6

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 02/06/2008 06:32:54
Just wait to see the SNP's reaction to this - then judge in whose interests they operate.
7

Rulesbutnotrulers,

Federation, not separation 02/06/2008 07:15:35
Any public money spent on MSPs second homes should be returned to the public when the MSP retires and that home is sold.

MSPs should receive only the national average wage. This will cut down on the carpet-baggers; and persuade the rest to enhance said average wage to mutual benefit. It will ensure MSPs remain in touch with ordinary wage earners.
8

megz,

glasgow 02/06/2008 09:26:32
i saw the article in the times on sunday about MPs expenses for petrol. Can these people be more removed from ordinary peoples lives? how can they possibly represent us if they are nothing like us? It is scanalous that these parasites can claim from anything from a newspaper to £10k for a new kitchen.
9

Miss H,

02/06/2008 10:10:58
7 You remind me of the person who phoned into a radio show to complain that their MSP had claimed expenses for toilet paper.

It does seem strange that they have to record every item as an expense. But I have never worked anywhere where I had to bring my own toilet paper to work so it's not an unreasonable expense.
10

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 02/06/2008 10:31:59
11

The rule of thumb policy for any company expenses is no receipt no expense claim. In most cases their is a max limit to expense claims for any calender month.
The fact that our MPs and MSP are claiming 6 figure expense sums on top of their 50k plus salaries and at the same time they are forcing the public sector to accept below inflation rate salary increaces where they tell us the inflation rate is actually below its true value doesnt sit well with the general public.
There is no defence or excuse for their greed and corruption in the face of their own national policies forced on everybody else.
11

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 02/06/2008 11:09:18
The SNP's silence is deafening.
12

,

02/06/2008 11:10:11
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
13

Alan B,

02/06/2008 11:11:13
It would be better if a clear distinction was made between personal expenses and expenses for running constituency offices.

#12 if the expenses are to employ staff that does not personally benefit the msp/mp as such. It is claiming for mortgages etc that blair etc have down and to such a degree that is where we have been let down so badly by our elected representatives.

I also would question why mps/msp need to employ staff when they are allowed second jobs. If they do not have time to do there own job that they need staff then why should they have a 2nd job.

The Mcletchie scandal showed msp claiming for taxis to their 2nd job.

The biggest area of corruption seems to be westmisnter. Atleast holyrood is repsonsive and is doing something about it.

14

,

02/06/2008 11:11:59
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
15

Truthseeker253,

Lanarkshire 02/06/2008 11:12:56
Miss H, it is true that workplaces provide such a basic necessity as toilet paper free of charge. However, these claims are for second homes. Presumably if one is wiping one's derriere in one home, one is not doing so in the other! The rest of us have to pay for domestic use toilet roll out of our basic wages - why should MSPs/MEPs/MPs not have do the same?

Angus Ogg should note that, while the items he mentions were not specified in their manifesto for May, 2007, the party known as The Scottish Christian Party would have happily met all of his criteria. They did well - with more votes overall than any other party that did not have elected representativesin the previous parliament - but not well enough! Perhaps in 2011, when we are looking for a credible, Scottish-based, opposition party, more people will be persuaded to vote for the SCP?! Perhaps Angus would like to assist in the next campaign??!!
16

Miss H,

02/06/2008 11:25:25
12 I think it is the word 'expenses' which is misleading. Their expenses include staff costs, office cosrs, stationery and it seems it all has to be itemised even down to tea, coffee and toilet paper. So you end up with the situation where an irate voter calls in saying how dare this person claim public money for their toilet paper when in fact it is for their office.

As I said before I have never worked anywhere that did not provide toilet paper for the staff. Equally, I think a constituent visiting their MSP would be entitled to expect to be able to use the loo and would not expect to have to bring their own loo roll with them.

So maybe what they should do is change the terminology so that expenses become what most of us would recognise as expenses and not office running costs which is where most of it actually goes.

17 - in the case I referred to I was talking about the publihed expenses which are office costs. That's where the confusion arises I think. People assume that they are claiming money for themselves when that is not the case. The system ought to be changed to ensure this confusion does not arise.
17

Alan B,

02/06/2008 12:20:37
#Miss H

Why should mp/msps be allowed 2nd jobs when they need staff to help them do their first one?
18

Miss H,

02/06/2008 12:24:30
19 It depends what their second job is. There are MSPs who are also councillors and one famous example of an MSP who is also an MP. In those cases I don't think there is much wrong with it and many MSPs actually employ councillors as staff. If it makes them better at responding to constituents I am not bothered. I agree that people like Gordon Jackson were out of order but the electorate have the final say on that - and in his case they did.
19

Alan B,

02/06/2008 12:36:06
#20 Miss

I am not talking about an msp being an mp. I do think they should give one up at the next election if they move parliaments.

What i am refering to is more McLetchie. I cannot understand how he could be leader of the opposition and be running a law practice.

I am also specifically referring to them having a 2nd job while feeling the need for staff as they cannot cope with the first one.

I not arguing particularly they should not have a 2nd job or they should not employ staff. Just that the 2 conflict. If u are overburdened by constituency work, need political researchers or whatever as u are too busy u should not be practising law etc.
20

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 02/06/2008 12:39:35
18

The reason its misleading is in order to avoid paying tax on it.
21

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 02/06/2008 12:49:37
18

But they are claiming money for themselves by charging "expense claims" for every day costs and "expense claims" on items no other body or individual can claim expenses for.
MPs and MSP set national legislation on controlling the public purse by denying the same "privledges" and expense claims" that are enjoyed by MPs and MSPs to other public sector workers.
Not only that but they can vote themselves whatever level of pay rise they choose while forcing other public sector workers into performance related pay schemes.
Its rotten and corrupt to the core and if you are involved in this at any level then you too are rotten and corrupt to the core.
And I dont care which party it is you represent.
22

TimW1234,

Ottawa, Canada 02/06/2008 12:55:12
Scotland is no different from Canada.

Politicians - well, most of them - are greedy bast*rds and are always grunting pigs swilling away at the trough funded by the taxpayer.

There ARE few - very PRECIOUS few - who do NOT shaft the taxpayer but they are in the vast minority.

What makes politicians, who are mostly slimey lawyers, so bloody acquisitive and piggish?
23

Walter Ego,

Durness 02/06/2008 13:50:05
We must have transparency Mr Salmond, not obfuscation.
24

,

02/06/2008 14:10:33
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
25

Alberto.,

02/06/2008 14:33:51
I am always intrigued in such matters as 'Expenses' claims by a Politician!

Normally such items are considered as 'out of pocket' costs, which are re-claimable, and presumably entirely tax free!

However, the title of ‘allowance’ awarded for the running of an office, employing staff, toilet rolls, etc. must be a completely different 'kettle of fish' which should be heavily involved with Government departments, concerning National Insurance and Income tax deduction payments for the 'office staff' they employ.

Is any check made that such an operation as ‘running an office’ is actually taking place, and all legislation conditions appertaining to doing so is in place - or is the ‘allowance’ simply paid regardless, by Parliament, on the politicians say-so without any real legal evidence, as presumably there should be?

Yet never a word is heard about these Government departments, being involved, so presumably,a check on Politicians ‘official’ business accounts is not made? Presumably they have to submit such documents to support their own / business Income Tax returns as a self employed business.

Is any check made to ensure that an alleged (out of pocket!) Expense claim has not been submitted to the Parliament, and paid to the claimant, and then the same amount - for the same item, claimed again as an expense to the ‘business’ side of ‘running the office?

Generally considered fraud, or as it is considered when politicains are involved 'oversight due to business pressure! - As if!

It may well be, of course, in the light of what appears to be a fairly easy going attitude to such matters as ‘Expenses’ - seemingly by those involved, that perhaps there’s an agreement between politicians and the Inland Revenue, that such things are trivial and irksome and they just don’t ‘Bovver’ - on the simple, but mis-leading Principle, that Politicians just don’t do that sort of thing - regardless of any previous, and some current evidence, to the contrary!

M
26

JCA REID,

Annan 02/06/2008 14:47:05
This issue should be in the public domain & the public should know what's going on. I am fairly certain the MPs/MSPs are writng off 99.99% of their entire living costs as Living Expenses.
It is the new way of becoming a millionaire. Before you had to have some sort of talent, sporting/musical etc., set up a business that grows & grows & that would be deemed fair. But now simply write off the cost of everything to the legislaltive body you happen to work in. Cushty, lovely jubbly!!
27

ddmc,

02/06/2008 15:24:44
#23 your on the money with your comments as is #27

I wonder if the IR reviewed the msp's tax returns, if there would be a lot more toilet paper needed :)

28

Miss H,

02/06/2008 17:24:20
21 I don't think it is a question of them needing staff because they cannot cope with the job. The job requires support as with any other professional occupation. You might as well ask why does a surgeon require theatre nurses or an anesthetist. Perhaps a more apt parallell would be a surgeon who was also a part time lawyer. It would be up to his or her employers to decide if the surgeon could have a part time job on the side. We are the MSPs' employers. We have the chance to sack them every 4 years. But for some bizarre reason the voters of Edinburgh Pentlands decided to promote David Mcletchie to be their MSP. Their choice.
29

Miss H,

02/06/2008 17:29:01
23 I am sorry but do you realise that MSPs staff are actually public sector workers? Do you also realise that MSPs are on the ultimate performance-related pay scheme ever?

They don't perform they lose their job. Just like that.

I would not defend corruption incidentally - and the second homes allowance comes pretty close to that to my way of thinking so I am glad they are scrapping it.

But too much bile directed at MSPs (of any party) is just that - bile caused by resentment and in some cases envy rather than having a valid grudge.
30

Miss H,

02/06/2008 17:35:11
28 It is in the public domain. You can read every single thing that every single MSP claims down to the last roll of toilet paper if you want to get to that level. It is all published on the Scottish Parliament website.

But I am sure that won't stop you ranting....
31

Doh,

02/06/2008 17:35:53
#21 Alan


Going to have to agree with you on this one.

From the MSPs, of various parties, that I have met most of them dont have the inclination or intellectual firepower to do research or consider public policy in any detail. I would be suprised if the read draft bills.

As for their constituency work - I am not totally convinced that should be their priority - acting as
super-well-paid social workers /ombudsmen - should be only act in this manner on acute cases.

Councillors should be off-loaded all this casework.
They are padi now. Perhaps they need staff too.

32

Mike555,

02/06/2008 18:20:20
I just don't know why the MSP's can't be housed in a purpose built dormitory for the very few days they attend parliament each week.

If they don't like it then the solution is the sack! Easy.

Don't know why we continue to pander to these overpaid p!gs anyway.
33

Miss H,

02/06/2008 18:43:56
34 There is actually perfectly adequate accomodation directly across the road from the Parliament. The Queen is very seldom in residence at Holyrood Palace and it has lots of rooms. Maybe they should just take it over - would save the taxpayers some money I would think.
34

,

02/06/2008 21:01:01
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
35

Commited to Independence,

Scotland 02/06/2008 21:45:47
31

Which is why I said "OTHER" public sector workers in my post.

What planet are you living on where MPs or MSPs lose their jobs over incompetancy or corruption?
Generally they lose their jobs for not towing the party line but everything else goes including stupidity and criminal behaviour.
The majority of the voting public dont vote anymore because they have no faith in their respective MPs and MSPs. The most common motivation these days for voting is to get individuals out of power not in.
36

Copper,

Falkirk 02/06/2008 22:08:10

Using the stables area of the Palace for MSPs would be ideal
The many rooms are now used for a small number but in the past they were all used for large number of skivvies that were brought North and the place is like a very large hotel
Next door is premises used by the Royal Order of who knows who appointed them to feed at the public trough order of Archers who have this high worth high value who pays for clubhouse ???
With a large Drink Cupboard

Perhaps someone can tell us who they are and just how deep they are in the Trough ??


37

Moder8,

EDINBURGH 06/06/2008 00:18:09
Said it before and I'll say it again, there are plenty of flats in Dumbiedykes, more than adequate for MSP's. No need for taxi travel, a short brisk walk to work would get he blood flowing to the brain ready for a days work. The flats could be rented so that a non-returned MSP would not have the problem of accounting for profits arising from property sales etc. As they walk to and from work the MSPs they would be able to keep abreast with local opinion on how well Parly is doing. I can't think of any disadvantages an MSP would have to suffer from living with and among the local people.

 

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