Help Sitemap Home Skip Navigation Contact Us Disability Statement

 
 
Monday, 1st December 2008 Change Date

The Scotsman Digital Archive - Special Christmas Offer

Premium Article !

Your account has been frozen. For your available options click the below button.

Options

Premium Article !

To read this article in full you must have registered and have a Premium Content Subscription with the The Scotsman site.

Subscribe

Registered Article !

To read this article in full you must be registered with the site.

Salmond – and Scotland – at a turning point



Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image
Click on thumbnail to view image

Published Date: 07 October 2008
Minority government can mean progress and solid achievement; it can also mean stalemate and drift

IF ALEX Salmond had been given a pound every time he had been told that his honeymoon with the voters was over, well, he wouldn't necessarily be a rich man but he could probably afford a decent flutter on the 3:20 at Haydock. Each time his administra
tion has faltered, so the warnings of doom and disaster have come raining in. But here we are, 17 months into the life of this administration and the First Minister's hegemony appears, still, to be virtually unchallenged.

Something happened last week, though, that suggests a turning point, of sorts, has been reached. It was nothing as dramatic as a series of government defeats on a crucial bill or a succession of gaffes by ministers. It was simply the decision by the opposition parties to set up a vote on a government policy – ahead of the policy actually being introduced – leading to a certain and planned defeat for the SNP administration.

The Conservatives decided to call a vote on the government's plans to stop under-21s buying booze from shops, aware that they had the backing of the Liberal Democrats, the Greens and Labour.

The Tory motion was passed, by 72 votes to 47 but then ministers made it clear they would press on regardless, determined to do something to tackle Scotland's binge-drinking culture.

On 16 May last year, when he was elected First Minister by the parliament, Salmond said these words: "My commitment today is to reach across the parties and try to build a majority, issue by issue, on the things that matter to the people of Scotland."

He knew, as did all the MSPs in the chamber, that Scottish politics was entering a new era, a time when bartering and negotiating behind the scenes would become the norm and where political foes would have to reach agreement to secure shared aims.

But last week's vote by the parliament, and the Scottish Government's subsequent decision to ignore it, shows that we are no nearer that new era than we were in May last year.

The Scottish Conservatives called for minority government long before it was delivered by the voters. They were the first to put it to their own use, offering their support to the SNP's Budget in return for major concessions on drugs, police numbers and business rates.

It was, therefore, somewhat ironic that it was the Conservatives who contrived to set up last week's vote. As far as the Conservatives are concerned then, consensus is something that they are willing to turn to when it suits them, and only then.

But the lack of progress towards consensus has been just as patchy on the government side. Salmond talked sincerely of "compromise and concession, intelligent debate and mature discussion" when he was elected First Minister and then what did he do? The first time he was faced with a really crucial vote, on the Budget, he threatened to resign and force a new set of elections – hardly acting out the language of consensus and harmony.

But it is not just the politicians who are to blame. The morning after last week's vote, Kenny MacAskill, the justice secretary, went on the radio to reaffirm his commitment to tackling Scotland's booze culture.

"Well, parliament certainly gave you a bloody nose, didn't it Cabinet secretary," was the first question he was asked – another clear example of the failure of all of us in the political process to "talk the talk" on consensus.

The real reason why we may have reached a turning point is because the Scottish Government is only now starting to bring forward its most contentious pieces of legislation, policies which will need cross-party support if they are to succeed.

Coming up over the next few months, ministers will have to present to parliament their alcohol plans, their local income tax proposals and their replacement for the public-private partnership scheme.

The alcohol plans provide the most scope for a new way forward. The Scottish Government's approach is simple: ministers believe that Scotland has avoided this difficult topic for too long and they want to do something.

They have come up with a series of proposals which might work, but which are also designed to provoke a debate and draw out realistic options from a nationwide discussion.

The opposition parties are clear that they do not want to see the under-21s ban for off-sales, but are willing to negotiate on the other proposals.

From this starting point, it should not be too hard to find a way forward, but the more the opposition forces defeats on the government and the more ministers entrench as a reaction to it, then the less likely it is that progress of any sort will be made.

Yes the Conservatives worked with the SNP on last year's Budget and they may do so again this year. Yes the Liberal Democrats may be able to find a way of supporting the Scottish Government's local income tax plans, but these stand out because they represent two of the only real examples of consensus politics in the past 17 months.

For most of its time, the Scottish Parliament – and the political establishment – has given the appearance that nothing has changed from the first eight years of devolution, that confrontation and partisan politics remains the norm.

Minority government can mean progress and solid achievement, it can also mean stalemate and drift and unless there is a conscious effort by all in the political process, we are in danger of being stuck in the latter.

While the media, opposition politicians and the Scottish Government still revert to the language of confrontation and still engineer votes designed to embarrass the other, that new era of consensus politics will be as far away as ever.

If that happens, then the Scottish Parliament's chances of achieving anything of substance over the next two and a half years will fade away as well.





The full article contains 1013 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 07 October 2008 12:30 AM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
 
1

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 07/10/2008 00:07:49
THE BLAIR/BROWN LEGACY
As we approach the fifth anniversary of the United Kingdom’s entry into the Iraq war, let us consider the legacy of Blair, Mandelson, Campbell and Brown – a legacy contributed to by Jim Murphy, MP, the new Secretary of State for Scotland, by his vote in 2003 in favour of Blair’s war and against the anti-war amendment.

THE LEGACY TO THE UK
Hundreds of thousands of Iraqui men, women and children dead and maimed.

An exponential increase in terrorism, including terrorist acts in the UK

“The humanitarian situation in Iraq among the most critical in the world” – The Red Cross

“Millions of people left to their own devices” – The Red Cross

135 UK servicemen and women killed.

Cost to the UK taxpayer - £6.4 billion.

THE LEGACY TO SCOTLAND
Scots as % of UK population 8%
Scots soldiers as % of the British Army 10%

Scots soldiers: deaths as % of total Army deaths 16%

The UK regiment to suffer most deaths in Iraq. The Royal Regiment of Scotland

The battalion within the RRS to suffer most deaths. The Black Watch


THE VOTE ON THE 2003 ANTI-WAR AMENDMENT

Anti-war amendment to government Iraq motion - 18.3.2003

MPs debating the Iraq crisis voted on an anti-war amendment. Rebels voted in favour. The motion was defeated, and Blair’s war went ahead.

Had the amendment succeeded, the UK would not have entered the war coalition with America

In favour of the amendment for stopping the war – Alex Salmond, MP, Scottish National Party - now First Minister of Scotland.

Against the amendment and in support of Blair’s war – Jim Murphy, MP, Labour Party - now Secretary of State for Scotland. This man will be in Glenrothes tomorrow with Iain Gray.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giUZYyxKE0g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey-5ymkm784


2

Castaway,

07/10/2008 00:10:31
Labour Party 1997 manifesto commitment.
We are committed to a referendum on the voting system for the House of Commons. An independent commission on voting systems will be appointed early to recommend a proportional alternative to the first-past-the-post system.
3

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 07/10/2008 00:10:37
Hamish only does consensus journalism when the consensus is against the present Scottish Government.
4

FrancesP,

07/10/2008 00:10:52
Re Jim Murphy on Newsnight Scotland tonight. He must have claimed at least three times - and he did the same on Sunday - that the UK is the fourth largest economy in the world. You'd think someone who was a minister at the Foreign Office until a few days ago might just have noticed that both the Chinese and French economies have recently overtaken the UK's, and that the UK is therefore now only the SIXTH largest. You'd also think a political interviewer worth his salt might challenge Murphy about his repeated reliance on this blatant factual innacuracy. Someone send a memo to Glenn Campbell, please...
5

ochone,

Sauchie, clack's 07/10/2008 00:11:05
A Scotsman reporter talking to himself it would seem, I wonder if he's listening though!
6

Gregor Addison,

Glasgow 07/10/2008 00:13:19
I can't help but feel that it is an aspiration amongst some unionists, particularly Labour, to see the Scottish government ham strung. Stalemate and drift, after all, is exactly what Labour have been seeking through a policy of non-cooperation that has seen them become the anti-SNP party. In a series of gaffes last week they voted against the return of the £400m of Council Tax Benefit, although four Labour MSPs 'accidentally' voted in favour of their return (that is, 'accidentally', if you believe Andy Kerr that this wasn't in fact some Labour MSPs breaking ranks). Will Labour again seek to bring down the budget as they did last year? It is now clear to all who the real wreckers are. Where do they stand on Council Tax? What is their policy? Minority governments will suffer inevitable defeats - some believe that is a good thing - it shows that the parliament is working. However, when the opposition are as irresponsible as Labour, unable to bring themselves to any form of agreement on any policy, you have to wonder if it is not the opposition who are moribund.
7

Willie,

Lochaber 07/10/2008 00:25:41
#1 I fail to see the relevance of your comments to the article.
We all love Alex Salmond - Hurrah
Why do all his activists only give us a potted version of the truth.
When NATO went to war with Yugoslavia over the treatment of Kosovo civilans he was the only leader to object.
Surprisingly when our regiments were being merged he was most eloquent speaking against. He doesn't seem to believe that armed forces should fight or just in the wars he believes in.
I wonder who that could be?
8

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 07/10/2008 00:26:04
Good night, bring them on.
9

Guga II,

Rockall 07/10/2008 00:26:16
#7.

Is that you saying goodnight before you go off and take your medication?
10

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 07/10/2008 00:28:34
Er, Willie@8. Re Kosovo, Salmond was talking about the tactics. Air strikes with no conventional ground force back-up. Remember Vietnam?
11

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 07/10/2008 00:31:59
Just as a reminder to Willie @8. The Scottish regiments are ground forces. The Union doesn't allow us to have high tech regiments.
12

Steve,

Bo'ness 07/10/2008 00:35:06
Salmond didn't object to the war, he objected to blanket bombing raids, which subsequently led to the UN observers being withdrawn, and the atrocities escalating tenfold. Meanwhile the UK had tanks sitting idly by over the border in Macedonia.

The Kosovo conflict was contrived to bring in the west on the side of the Kosovars... and the west fell for it.
13

Niknaks,

07/10/2008 00:35:18
This is a complete non story and a desperate attempt from The Scotsman really.

Labour had a strong hold in Scotland for what, 60 years? Obviously many of these years before Scotland had it's own Parliament. Would it be possible for any party SNP, Lib-dem, Tory, Green, Socialist etc. to undo / introduce new policies in a 18 month period? How long did it take the New Labour party under Tony Blair to rectify the sh*t that Thatcher left behind?

Labour have given up on holding onto the Glenrothes seat and have just deferred the by-election in Motherwell and Wishaw for fear of losing that seat too.


You may say night, night Salmond, but who do you think will take power in 2010/11?

It'll not be Labour as they're likely to have very few seats in Scotland after the next Scottish and general elections and I'd predict a similar anihilation to that that the Tory party suffered in Scotland.

As for the Westminster Government, I'd say that when Gordy finally hangs up his coat, we may well face a minority government there too, with Tories and possibly a Lib-dem coalition.
14

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 07/10/2008 00:36:18
As you wish all you unionists who were going to ask if Salmond was really meaning NATO should have sent in the Scottish regiments to Kosovo.
15

Royster,

07/10/2008 00:38:26
Salmond at a turning point. Blown his chance for Scottish independence as the oil price collapses and his small 'arc of prosperity' countries such as Iceland crumble into dust. HBOS bailed out by the UK.
16

livilion,

livingston 07/10/2008 00:39:20
Of course the big difference between today and the position 17 months ago is that if the Scottish government is defeated on a point of principle, say for eg LIT, Salmond could call their bluff and go back to the country for a fresh mandate.

Last canvas of Scottish public opinion in August seemed to suggest that the SNP would take 5 seats from the Lib Dems and 29 from Labour, I do not recall the position on the Greens, Margo or the Tories, but with those kind of gains on their current position it would hardly make much odds would it?

Frankly I'm not sure if the mechanism is there to call for an early Holyrood election, but judging by the Labour party's aversion to bye-elections right now I'd love to be a fly on the wall when that option comes up at People's Party HQ(North Britain Branch).
17

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 07/10/2008 00:43:25
Royster. Keep trying. Scotland is still part of the UK and, as such, gets the same treatment as the other constituent parts- eh no?
18

Jock Tamson,

Scotland, Caledonia, Alba 07/10/2008 00:46:01
17, Livilion. You might find that the SNP are playing the waiting game before overruling the unionist coven in parliament.
19

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 07/10/2008 00:47:31
The little problem that the opposition parties have if they want to engage in frustrating the government is that they will appear petty and negative.

The Alcohol issue is a point in case - if they do not try to contribute to the debate with their own ideas the people will see that the at least the SNP are TRYING to do something, to continually knock such efforts will be seen as obstructive and negative.

This is where the beauty of the SNP's position lies and that the opposition and journalists like this one have failed yet to grasp. Consensual politics and a balanced parliament delivers an obligation on all who sit in it to contribute and engage. Individaul members have a power they do not normally have, to not use this is an abuse and can be shown to be, to be obstructive is an abuse also and can be shown to be.

This engagement will not be easy for the SNP who have faced open hostility from a wounded labour party, it is entirely reasonable for them in a position of relative power to keep on landing blows on labour.

The SNP must show leadership and build consensus as it will ultimately be their government that gets the credit for bills that are passed, it is now time for the 'New Politics' to begin, this issue is an ideal platform, the voters of Scotland are more interested in change than political point scoring, the party that delivers the change through consensus will gain the most politically.
20

Dougie Douglas,

Brisabne 07/10/2008 00:48:51
#16 Royster

LOL

Thanks big guy, that cheered me up
21

Castaway,

07/10/2008 00:56:33
Standing Orders of the Scottish Parliament.
Resignation can be triggered off by the passage of a Motion of No Confidence in the First Minister or the Scottish Government or by rejecting a Motion of Confidence in the Scottish Parliament. In those situations, the First Minister must tender his resignation to the monarch.
In doing so he tenders the resignation of all Scottish Government Ministers who must leave office with immediate effect.
In such circumstances, it is the responsibility of the Presiding Officer to appoint an individual to serve as First Minister in the interim, until the Scottish Parliament determines on a new nominee to be presented to the Sovereign for formal appointment.
If no new FM is found then elections will have to be held 28 days after the FM resigns.
Note:- In such circumstances .............for formal appointment.
Wether this would be carried out and the opposition voted for a new nominee remains to be tested.
22

livilion,

livingston 07/10/2008 01:10:11
16 Royster
Sorry Royster I know that Hull is a ferr distance away from the border but it seems that news is taking a decade or more to reach your part of the planet from Holyrood.

Let me spell it out I T A I N'T A B O U T O I L.
Oil should be Scotland's winning Lotto ticket but not what the independence issue is about.

Consider Match of the Day, Football Focus, BBC news and current afairs: How much of what you see and hear in Hull informs you of what is going on day to day in Scotland, Wales or N.Ireland?
Answer: precious little and when they are mentioned its as foreign countries where they speak a form of English in peculiar accents and dialects.

You get all hurt and upset because you think the Celts wanting to run their own affairs means they all hate you.
Not so, any more than leaving home to set up on your own means that you hate your own parents, except in this case the celtic nations are actually older than Mother England, who you could say forcibly adopted them. Still that was then and this is now, developments within the EU makes the older British version obsolete and redundant unless you live a life of the Last Night at the Proms.

Want a laugh? I heard BBC Radio 4 the other day saying that one result of the banking crisis may be that Britain may be forced to adopt the Euro as the price for saving its financial sector from being picked off and ruined.
Horror of Horrors?
Then think of Scotland in Britain in this context and Britain in Europe. Same difference.
23

Bring it Off,

UK 07/10/2008 01:27:19
#7 another as-inine post - (how are things at Labour party HQ by the way you were rumbled a long time ago)so good night Brown Good night Blair good night Prescott good night Mandelson (hope you enjoyed the kidney stones and the rubber gloves - oh you did!)good night Campbell, good night Alexander both of them, good night new Labour Old Labour and good night to Desperate Labour - anything to hold on to power eh, lies, spin, wars, sudden law changes, demographic manipulation, social engineering, creative immigration anything at all to hold on to power.
24

izzie,

dundee 07/10/2008 02:07:41
What a sad little article and sad little unionist posts. How can the 'punch the air in glee' at the state of the money markets Labourites still believe they have credibility among voters worried sick about their pensions. Scotland reached a turning point long before May 2007.
25

Weegiewarbler,

Sailing 07/10/2008 02:37:17
Interestingly sad little article of non cooperation and 0 intelligent ideas by the "opposition parties"

As stated elsewhere - the majority party only sets the primary agenda under proportional representation - Scotland is NOT and never should be treated as Westminster where "fighting is the norm".

Now - one wonders what the Scotsman will run tomorrow - the pound at it's lowest in years?
Why?

2 likely reasons from the international money men.

1 = Statements today about recession
2 = (MORE IMPORTANT) the FALL in the price of Scotlands' oil, meaning the Westminster Exchequer is literally bankrupt without the required income to underwrite it's fiscal responsibilities.

RBS "Under Attack"
Just remember the statement,
"I will do whatever it takes to preserve the union!"
26

tartangladbach,

edinburgh 07/10/2008 02:43:42
20# spot on, the conservatives & labour don't understand basic marketing! eg; don't attack popular & positive ideas when people want that change! posters like, "bring them on" shows the level of grasp of the situation! they don't have one! new labour in particular are not listening to people on the street! their just listening to their own people! big, big mistake! if glasgow east was an earthquake? glenrothes will burn the house down!
27

Royster,

07/10/2008 02:49:14
#23. Define 'celt'.
28

,

07/10/2008 03:31:56
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
29

Salem,

07/10/2008 04:13:45
# 1

You’re rant is off topic.

The men and women of the coalition forces in Iraq under a UN mandate that is about to expire are fighting for you and your ilk to have the freedom to express you’re idiotic opinions.

The discussion is about upcoming legislation in the Scottish parliament and the difficulty the SNP will face, according to the Scotsman, in getting it passed.

However, we all know the Scotsman is no friend of the SNP.

Following Glasgow East it is crucial for the SNP to win handily in the Glenrothes.

A win in Glenrothes would be a game changer, which is why Brown has delayed the departure on McConnell to Malawi.

The next general election in the UK will change the political landscape in ways people could not have imagined only a few years ago.

The Labour party will be swept away to oblivion. The SNP will command a sizable majority in Holyrood and it won’t be necessary to reach out to other parties to implement policies that are in the best interests of Scotland.

I find it amazing the Scotsman doesn’t see what is coming and why they persist in looking backwards.
30

Royster,

07/10/2008 04:39:19
#28. The 'Wikipedia' article defines nothing. There is no such thing as a Celt, the only idea is romantic brigadoon nonsense. Two thirds of all English and Scots are descended from the indigenous people that first populated Europe. Genetic evidence suggests that most English are descended from Belgic tribes north of the River Seine.
31

Coileach an taobh Tuath,

07/10/2008 05:03:03


This paper and in particular Hamish MacDonell is a joke.

You can almost sense his wish for yaboo politics whatever the costs to scotland, what an imbecile this man is.

No once does he ask what the opposition aprties alternative plans are, do they ahve any?

NO, oor Hamish is only interested in SNP defeat, so blinded has this journalist become to what real critical analysis is.

Pisss Poor


32

Geoff,

sa 07/10/2008 06:15:07
17 Livilion-Morning squire! Much as it pains me to admit, the reality is that if an election is forced by a combined Unionist rejection of the SNP in the SP then it is certain that the SNP would be returned with an overall majority at Holyrood. So they,de facto, must be seen as a 'majority' government. If Labour, LibDems and tories are serious about the Union they need to consider a Unionist electoral pact to avoid losing many seats on a split vote. In Glasgow East the combined Unionist vote was higher than that of the SNP for eg
33

subrosa,

07/10/2008 06:18:30
In my world this is certainly a turning point. At a dinner on Saturday night, 8 of the 12 present said they were impressed/most impressed with the SNP in government and their efforts to do something about such matters as our alcohol problem.

These numbers may seem just average. They're certainly not as of the 12 only 3 voted SNP in 2007. Now 7 would definitely vote SNP and 3 possibly would because voting tory in this neck of the woods would be a waste. The 2 liberals couldn't make up their minds.

Aye there's a definite change ...
34

An Beal Bacht,

07/10/2008 06:25:19
Some really good posts today. Peter Curran # 1 - well said you started the thread off just right.
35

Finnzz,

Offshore 07/10/2008 06:26:39
#16

You need to consider the price of oil in Sterling. And the fact that the pumps are always on full.

Another strange article from this paper.
36

Angleland Isover,

07/10/2008 06:53:00
At the beginning of the SNP"S term in government the unionists said they would do nothing else but pick fights with Warmonger. After 17 months all the unionists have done is try to hinder the SNP regardless of the benefit to Scotland.
37

W U Merchant,

Aberdeen 07/10/2008 06:58:49
The Scottish Parliament cannot move forward with an SNP "government". Its numerous broken promises will see to that. Scotland deserves better.
38

TommyKaye,

UK 07/10/2008 06:59:55
Alistair Campbell to return as key election advisor

Alistair Campbell has agreed to return to Labour as a key election advisor

Lets hope that when he turns up in Glenrothes to tell the local folks how lucky they are that Lying Labour are here to help them that someone will have a word in his ear about Iraq and that nice Mr. Kelly eh Alistair remember him.

Should have stuck to writing pornography Mr Campbell.

Gordon Brown could recruit another old ally to his 'war cabinet' as Alistair Campbell agreed to return to Labour as a key election advisor on Monday night.
The party's former spin chief is expected to link up with his old colleagues for the European and County elections in June, which could determine if Gordon Brown is still Prime Minister.
And he will also almost certainly play a central role in Labour's campaign for the 2010 election, although he has resisted attempts by Mr Brown to recruit him to a full-time job.
If so, Mr Campbell will work alongside Peter Mandelson and Labour's campaign coordinator Douglas Alexander - recreating the team that worked with Gordon Brown and Tony Blair at the 2001 election.
The appointment is the another example of the old guard returning to Labour.
Last week Mr Brown shocked Westminster by announcing Mr Mandelson would return to the cabinet for a third time as Secretary of State for Business.
A Labour source said last night: 'We are expecting Alistair to return for next June's elections and to work on the general election.
'With Peter Mandelson on board we are putting the band back together.'
Mr Campbell has said he does not want to 'give up having a life', so Mr Brown is expected to recruit somebody else to the post of director of communications.
However the 51-year-old has said he is happy to help Labour when asked.
This summer he played an important role in encouraging Blairites to rally round Mr Brown after calls from backbenchers for a leadership contest.
Mr Campbell left No10 in 2004 over David
39

Robert Mason,

Larkhall 07/10/2008 07:02:18
According to The Times, Alex Salmond's weight has increased by 8 kilograms since he assumed the role of First Minister. We Scots are struggling - clearly, Mr Salmond ain't.
40

Lance Boyle,

Linlithgow 07/10/2008 07:05:20
39

Tommy, what are your views on the SNP's broken promises? Do these constitute lies and, if not, why not?
41

Patrick O'Reilly,

Coatbridge 07/10/2008 07:08:26
#39 TommyKaye

Tommy, in a previous post, you confirmed that you had, prior to May 2007, voted Conservative. When do you intend to stop your promiscuous voting?
42

Walter Ego,

Durness 07/10/2008 07:14:43
40

Mr Mason, the article I read said 10.2 kilograms. Where did you read 8?
43

Walter Ego,

Durness 07/10/2008 07:18:51
42

You make an interesting point, Mr O'Reilly. Research carried out at Strathclyde University shows that 42% of those who voted SNP in May 2007 had voted Conservative in a previous Scottish Parliament election or General Election. One of the conclusions was that, if they switched in the past, they are highly likely to switch in the future.
44

Finnzz,

Offshore 07/10/2008 07:36:58
#41

If Mr Boyle could provide details of all these broken promises,

or is this just a phrase you picked up when the grown-ups were talking.
45

Grahamski,

Falkirk 07/10/2008 07:46:50
The turning point in our parliament was the moment the back-of-a-fag-packet policies of the SNP came up against reality and our parliament sent the SNP home (tae think again).
Or quite possibly for the first time........
46

TommyKaye,

UK 07/10/2008 08:05:45
#40

The Blairs, who have lost four stone between them recently, were meant to be taking delivery of their latest fitness toy - a £30,000 wave exercise pool.

Clearly Tony and Cherie are doing better than Mr Salmond but then again they are kings of snouts in the trough are they not
47

TommyKaye,

UK 07/10/2008 08:06:19
#42 Get a life
48

,

07/10/2008 08:13:53
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
49

Auld_Reekie,

Falkirk 07/10/2008 08:31:03
Ignoring the predictable nonsense in most of the comments...

Does anyone else find it ironic that this article comes from the most unashamedly biased and partisan newspaper in Scotland? The Scotsman should be the last newspaper in Scotland to lecture anyone on concensus politics. Consensus requires compromise and a willingness to see both sides of the argument - when it comes to the SNP, I cannot remember a SINGLE balanced article by this newspaper in recent years.

How can a paper preach about consensus, compromise, fairness, balance, when it has repeatedly failed to abide by similar guidelines, nevermind completely ignoring its duty to be unbiased and neutral?

This newspaper and others like it, are just as much to blame for the entrenched views in Scottish politics. The sooner the owners of this paper realise this, the sooner The Scotsman will return to being a serious newspaper again.

50

Masterpiece,

07/10/2008 08:31:04
Scottish people seem to had a Colonial and Colonised mindset for a very long time let us hope that the coming years will get rid of this state of mind. Sadly, Scots to succeed need to always be on the winning side no matter the cost to their languages or cultures.

Getting rid of this Colonialised and Colonised mindset will have to happen soon and long before independence can be stabalised.
51

sonofhamish,

edinburgh 07/10/2008 08:37:16
#47, Salmon isn't doing too bad with his 3 or is it 4 jobs and paychecls? He is just as much a snout in the trough politician as the rest of them, dont believe otherwise.

Actually I do applaud the SNP for trying to do something about drink culture up here which is destroying us, unfortunately Labour and the Conservatives are too much in thrall of the big drinks companies to do anything meaningfull.

52

Linda,

Edinburgh 07/10/2008 08:43:01
# 4 The BBC allowed the unctous Jim Murphy to plug and name check the useless Labour candidate in Glenrothes (checxk out his poerformance on STVs Politics Now of September 25th)on Newsnight last night and on Good Morning Scotland radio show this morning but no opportunity for SNP to promate the very able Peter Grant. Can't expect Scotsman to be balanced but as lincense payers the BBC should stop supporting Labour.
53

P Rayner.,

Great Britain. 07/10/2008 08:56:19
Yes and something else happened " last week. " The international turbulence has shown the insignificance of Salmond, the delusion of those on these pages who shout about a forthcoming golden age, much like that already experienced in Ireland or Iceland, of an independent Scotland and the dog eat dog reality of the European Union. Better by far, surely, when push comes to shove that Scots interests are best served and voices most heard inside the Union.
54

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic` 07/10/2008 09:04:39
Murphy and Grey can get together with the Tories and the Libdems anytime they want.

What they should remember is the Scottish Government can take the matter to the People by calling a Scottish General Election.

But like the Unionists on here, they know what the result would be, and the political oblivion that they would find themselves in. The SNP took on the establishment in 2007, they are fearties and wont dare give Alex the Vote to end this damn Union with a foreign power.
55

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 07/10/2008 09:05:51
Oh sorry I forgot something.

BRING IT ON AND GET YER ERKIES SLAPPED.
56

GM,

07/10/2008 09:07:14
@54

I cannot understand your logic at all.

Your post is full of woe, bad news, bleak outlook etc and yet you follow that up by telling us its better to be in the very union that is part and parcel of the same woe, bad news and bleak outlook!

staggering.

Most sensible people look for alternatives when the chips are down, not just 'more of the same'.
57

izzie,

dundee 07/10/2008 09:07:21
# 54 were you 'punching the air with glee' at the news of the money crisis?

# 53 i have already registered a complaint as should all Tory Lib Dem and SNP activists
58

Gtj,

07/10/2008 09:09:27
"Salmond – and Scotland – at a turning point" - You wish.
59

GM,

07/10/2008 09:09:48
@55

I partially disagree with you.

I vote SNP and wish we had independence, but not to cast the other parties into 'political oblivion' as you put it, but to give rise to a strong, multi party democracy where *every single party* is working with Scotland's best interests at heart. This can only happen when we are independent.
60

GM,

07/10/2008 09:11:26
@59

the turning point was May 2007 and its been onwards and upwards since.
61

P Rayner.,

Great Britain. 07/10/2008 09:14:02
GM 57. I'm not responsible for your level of understanding. If you choose to read something thats not written will remain a problem for you.
62

izzie,

dundee 07/10/2008 09:15:48
Incidently Iain Grey is strangely absent from radio and t.v. not to mention the press are New Labour saving him for a rainy day?
63

Number 6,

Germany 07/10/2008 09:15:49
Scots will realise that giving the SNP a massive majority will let them get on with the huge task of repairing the damage done over the decades by successive London controlled Parties.

let them implement their policies, if the people don't like them, they can vote for a different party next time. The opposition are making a grave mistake if they are going to mount a concerted campaign of obstruction for obstruction's sake.
64

P Rayner.,

Great Britain. 07/10/2008 09:19:31
IZZIE. I'm not too sure why you asked the question. But since you asked, no I'm not punching anything with glee. To me, though, its an interesting thought that the current turmoil, if it worsens, might in the end lead to benefit for this country.
65

Joe,

Howdenhall Road 07/10/2008 09:20:16
"In Glasgow East the combined Unionist vote was higher than that of the SNP for eg"

And if those who voted SNP don't get the promised 'bribes' we will see a quick return of SNP to the political Glasgow wilderness?
66

,

07/10/2008 09:21:28
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
67

GM,

07/10/2008 09:22:40
@62

"I'm not responsible for your level of understanding."


thank goodness, I'd hope to never fall to your level.

I don't know a single nationalist who has rose tinted glasses about independence.

I *do* know several who actually feel that self-government is much more preferable during bad times than being directed from a remote (physically and ideaologically) parliament in westminster.


Its about self-determination.

It is transparent from the unionist view, however, that it is England that needs Scotland very much more than Scotland needs England. How could it be any other way?
68

P Rayner.,

Great Britain. 07/10/2008 09:26:56
bye
69

David MacVicar,

web 07/10/2008 09:29:59
This article is not too bad. However the unionists using their collective majority to block the Government is nothing new and it will be used many times over.

Where the article is desperately wrong is that that this is not at all related to popularity of the government. However voters will be taking note of all government measures and unionist countermeasures and judge. Like all 46 Labour MSPs votong against compensation for Scottish farmers, while their counterparts in England voted for compensation for English farmers.

The alcohol bill has been badly managed by the SNP I would say but the unionists have not been a co nsrtuctive opposition they just all out opposed without proposing anything at all. The government is trying to tackle a major alcohol problem. The oppositions answer is leave things as they are. They even said so at FMQs.

Leaving things as they are did not work and is not working, if they want to block an initiative they need to argue an alternative. We don't need consensus politic we need effective representation. We are not getting it.

Trumpeting the oppositions victory of blocking the SNP without an alternative is bizarre. Just blocking the Government is easy and of no help to anyone and isn't going to get people to start supporting Labour or anyone else en masse.

It does show the desperation in the unionist camps that managing to just block a minority government is seen as an achievement!
70

Ananurhing,

07/10/2008 09:37:53
#63 izzie

Didn't he recently liken himself to some "Invincible" comic strip character. Or was it "Invisible"!

You'll probably find labour already realise he's not up to the job, and Jim Murphy's said " Let me do the talking". Oh dear!
71

Edward,

07/10/2008 09:38:35
#63 izzie,dundee
Worry ye not
Iain Gray will be seen later in photo shoot carrying
Jim Murphy's handbag when they tour around Glenrothes today speaking to the 'ordinary' folk.
If its like Glasgow east it will be stage managed with close in shots of the 'crowds' of supporters
72

The Tin Man,

07/10/2008 09:38:36
#70 David MacVicar

You are being childish to polarise everything you see at Holyrood into 'Nationalism' & 'Unionism'. Please explain exactly what alcohol legislation has to do with 'Nationalism' & Unionism'?

Do you seriously believe that raising the age for buying alcohol is an instrinsically patriotic action, but banning smoking in public buildings is an act of unionism?
73

GM,

07/10/2008 09:40:40
Glasgow East - Downfall

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMi776jah1w


(very, very funny)
74

Ananurhing,

07/10/2008 09:43:02
Hamish
"While the MEDIA, opposition politicians and the Scottish Government still revert to the language of confrontation .......consensus politics will still be as far away as ever"

Pot, kettle, black Hamish! Large pinch of salt anyone?
75

Ananurhing,

07/10/2008 09:55:09
#40 Robert Mason
#42 Patrick O'Reilly

There you two go again! Posting within minutes of each other. You're either pals bridging the divide, or some bipolar individual pretending to.
76

Gusto,

07/10/2008 09:55:40
Royster 28: Define a Celt - A Celt is Celtic football club player.
31. "There is no such thing as a Celt" - correct - they are Kelts.
If you are writing English....
77

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 07/10/2008 09:59:50
The Nationalist honeymoon will eventually come to an end.

However, it is not helped by having the most lacklustre
bunch of Scots Unionist Opposition politicians in living memory.

The Labour Party in Scotland is still in post-traumatic shock after losing power at Holyrood, and the debacle over Wendy Alexander's donations. The new leader of the Labour Parliamentary Group at Holyrood also looks too lightweight to tackle the arrogant and bullying Salmond?

As usual, the Scots Lib-Dems remain anonymous, despite also changing leader, and we have the unedifying sight of the Scots Tories still wandering about like the Lost Tribe, desperately hoping that the Scots Electorate will eventually forgive them.

No wonder the Nationalists have had an easy run!
78

GM,

07/10/2008 10:02:58
"No wonder the Nationalists have had an easy run!"


and how would you describe labour's previous 8/50 years in scotland??
79

Ken S.,

Reading 07/10/2008 10:12:31
#23 livilion,
"..except in this case the celtic nations are actually older than Mother England.."

Defining "nation" as something near the the whole of the present territories, I suggest that you're only correct re Scotland (overall coverage achieved during reign of Kenneth McAlpin, d.858)

Athelstan became king in 924 and, in 927, gained control of the last of the Danelaw and thus became the first king to have direct rule over all of England.

Next on the list:Brian Boru successfully drives the Vikings from the Shannon and in 1002 is accepted as high king of all Ireland.

Last in line: The first king to unite all of Wales was arguably Grufydd ap Llywelyn - initially King of Gwynedd and Powys from 1039 to 1057 and for all Wales from 1057 to 1063.

Not that it matters in the present day debate, but these throwaway lines of distorted history are irritating and detract from your case.
80

Marian,

07/10/2008 10:29:08
New Labour have recruited large sections of the media to print or broadcast their propaganda as fact. That is what spin doctoring means and it requires willing collaborators in the media. Some of the media have done even worse, and propagated deliberate lies or character assassination at the behest of New Labour. More and more of the media, and its members, are becoming indistinguishable from New Labour. They routinely trade jobs and careers - New Labour politicians become expensively paid columnists, journalists join the government machine and give orders to civil servants. New Labour gets angry with journalists only when they break ranks and refuse to play the game. In spite of their shrill complaints. The Blair and Brown governments have had a remarkably easy ride from the media. Nearly all of their biggest decisions were endorsed and promoted by the media and their propaganda was rarely, if ever, dissected or challenged.
81

puskas,

East kilbride 07/10/2008 10:35:32
No 54, Rayner.

The insignificence of Brown and "W" has been shown for quite some time with the financial markets. Or maybe I should have said the significence of both as fools is more appropriate.

When Scotland is an independant country you may have a small point in what you say. The powers that be in Westminster have treated the Scottish people as second class citizens for 300 years and beyond.
The Irish have shown backbone previously led by a Scotsman that a person like ourself could only dream about.
I should be said that the SNP and education of the young will be the turning point for Scotland becoming independent. Posts like we see submitted on this site prove that the dieing breed of unionists have nothing to offer in debate to save the union..
No 54, Rayner....... Only a few of the uneducated like yourself left as Scotland progress's, although handicapped with unionist involvement from the top..
Corruption, lies and deceit in politics may never be eradicated but within Scotland's (independent) borders shall be controlled.
82

puskas,

East kilbride 07/10/2008 10:37:54
Kelt and Celt are one of the same.
83

Westfield Bairns,

falkirk 07/10/2008 10:40:24
Why does the Scotsman not just call itself The Daily Unionist Mouthpeice just incase someone may be looking to read some unbiased political reporting. Well suppose it keeps the Unionist self loathers happy
84

Peter Curran,

Kirkliston 07/10/2008 10:42:07
#78 Mr. Lachie Todd: You've got the wrong adjectives ("arrogant and bullying")to describe Alex Salmond - try confident and assertive, two admirable qualities in the First Minister of Scotland, ones that obviously stick in a Unionist and Little Scotlander throats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey-5ymkm784
85

puskas,

East kilbride 07/10/2008 10:43:03
No79,

Sorry for intervening... Elected on lies, corruption, lack of ability as leaders but very good at using the system to becoming very rich at the expense of the electorate who trusted Liebour.
86

Darien,

Panama 07/10/2008 10:47:03
#78:Hardly. The Nationalist honeymoon will go on and on.

The UK Union began with a bank going best and ends the same way. How appropriate. If this stushie hurries along another Scottish election then bring it on - Tories, NewLab and FibDums will be shown the door. Same goes for a UK Gen Election. The Union is bust, so is the British State, in all respects. Bring it on.
87

Rasco,

Inverness 07/10/2008 10:48:37
If all you union crowd get together and force the 3 unionist parties to call a no confidence vote in Salmond you might get an election and lets see what would happen then.I saw a good story today some shop keepers in Leith Walk put up a poster wishing a Happy (one year old)Birthday for a HOLE in the road turned a bit sour when workman came to pull it down,bring on the trams.
88

Darien,

Panama 07/10/2008 10:49:18
#87 should read 'bust'.
89

puskas,

East kilbride 07/10/2008 10:55:05
Off topic:

A Houdini type disappearance act has occurred in Scottish Politics over the past few months..

Anyone know what happened to big Jackie Baillie... LOL
As we know she was the Wendy associate and minder.
90

Rev. S. Campbell,

Bath 07/10/2008 10:58:48
"the Conservatives worked with the SNP on last year's Budget and they may do so again this year. Yes the Liberal Democrats may be able to find a way of supporting the Scottish Government's local income tax plans, but these stand out because they represent two of the only real examples of consensus politics in the past 17 months."

Someone's conspicuous by their absence.

It's funny watching the increasingly desperate Union trolls try ever more stridently to pretend that black is white. "The honeymoon is over! The turning point has arrived! Scotland is sick of Salmond!"

And yet, every successive opinion poll shows the positive, popular policies of the Scottish Government stretching the lead between them and the befuddled, incompetent, infighting, negative, scaremongering Labour.

Everyone in Scotland can see them running scared of a Holyrood byelection, and crying plaintively about how they're the poor wee underdogs in a Westminster election where they hold an 11,000 majority. Our hardworking trolls can shout as they like and lie as barefacedly as they want, but they're the only people listening. The rest of us just chuckle, watch our confident, informed and composed First Minister, track the daily good news on the opinion polls and wait for St Andrew's Day 2010.
91

Number 6,

Germany 07/10/2008 11:08:19
With the spectre of a spiteful tory Goverment in London, and a slithering Mandleson back in the Liebour fold, there seems little for the SNP to worry about.

Scots on the whole are not stupid. They have given the "union" more than enough time to show it's worth,
and of course, it has failed miserably. Now that we finally have a SNP we can take seriousley, Scots are floc